Hunt Gather Talk Podcast: Ptarmigan and Snowcock

Comment

As an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases.

Ptarmigan podcast cover art.

Welcome back the Hunt Gather Talk podcast, Season Two, sponsored by Hunt to Eat and Filson. This season will focus entirely on upland game — not only upland birds but also small game. Think of this as the podcast behind my latest cookbook, Pheasant, Quail, Cottontail, which covers all things upland.

Every episode will dig deep into the life, habits, hunting, lore, myth and of course prepping and cooking of a particular animal. Expect episodes on pheasants, rabbits, every species of quail, every species of grouse, wild turkeys, rails, woodcock, pigeons and doves, chukars and huns. Today we talk about the alpine birds, white-tailed ptarmigan in the Lower 48, and the introduced Himalayan snowcock.

In this episode I talk with my friend Jim Millensifer of Kansas all about ptarmigan and Himalayan snowcock.

Jim and I have hunted together several times, and he runs the Kansas Ringneck Classic, which focuses attention on the fantastic upland hunting in western Kansas. Over its nine-year history, the event has raised more than $500,000 for habitat.

I was lucky enough to have the guys at Project Upland follow me around with a camera at last year’s classic. You can see that video here.

In this episode, we go over all kinds of things surrounding these hard-to-get birds, from being physically fit enough to hike all the way up to 10,000 feet (and higher!) to find the birds,as well as gear, guns and some biology, the history of the snowcock’s introduction into the United States — as well as how to pluck, prep and cook your birds.

For more information on these topics, here are some helpful links:

A Request

I am bringing back Hunt Gather Talk with the hopes that your generosity can help keep it going season after season. Think of this like public radio, only with hunting and fishing and wild food and stuff. No, this won’t be a “pay-to-play” podcast, so you don’t necessarily have to chip in. But I am asking you to consider it. Every little bit helps to pay for editing, servers, and, frankly to keep the lights on here. Thanks in advance for whatever you can contribute!

Subscribe

You can find an archive of all my episodes here, and you can subscribe to the podcast here via RSS.

Subscribe via iTunes and Stitcher here.

Transcript

As a service to those with hearing issues, or for anyone who would rather read our conversation than hear it, here is the transcript of the show. Enjoy!

Hank Shaw:

What’s going on everybody? This is Hank Shaw with the Hunt Gather Talk podcast sponsored by to Hunt to Eat and Filson. This episode’s going to be all kinds of fun, we’re going to get really esoteric really quick with the entire episode just about the Himalayan snowcock and ptarmigan in the lower 48 states of the United States.

So these may be the most difficult birds to hunt in the lower 48, and yes I can hear all you Alaskans say, “Yes I’ve killed them with Nalgenes or kicked them with rocks or whatever.” Well the birds are quite different down here in America. So get ready I’m going to be introducing my good friend, Jim Millensifer, who has hunted both birds. I have hunted ptarmigan, but not the Himalayan snowcock. It’s a very, very rare breed of hunter who has been to the Ruby Mountains of Nevada to hunt these birds. And that is the only place that the snowcock lives in the United States.

So without further ado, we’re going to talk all things Alpine crazy birds at 10,000 feet. How to go about hunting them, what these birds are like when you finally get up there, hunting tips, gear guides and, of course this being me, how to cook and eat these crazy birds. So without further ado, we’ll take it away.

Hey Jim, good to have you on the Hunt Gather Talk podcast. I am very, very glad to get you on. And you are, I think, unique among my bird hunting companions and someone who’s actually not only hunted, but has shot and eaten a Himalayan snowcock.

Jim Millensifer:

That’s right.

Hank Shaw:

Which is a … I think it may be the hardest upland gamebird to actually hunt in the United States.

Jim Millensifer:

I will confess that I’ve hunted the bird twice. And the year that I was successful was my first year and, frankly, it was just blind luck. So while it was very, very challenging from a cardiovascular standpoint, I was crazy lucky. Now my second year, not so much luck and way, way harder. So yeah, it’s quite an endeavor. And anybody that’s crazy into upland birds, you got to try it at least once. And if you’re serious about harvesting a bird, you’re probably going to have to go way more than one time.

Hank Shaw:

Crazy, crazy. So to tell the people out there … You and I have known each other off and on for wow, it’s got to be pushing 10 years I think. I know we met, I believe, it the first time at pheasant fest.

Jim Millensifer:

Yeah that’s right. I live in western Kansas and I’m involved with the Kansas Governor’s pheasant hunt. And we met at one of the pheasant fests, I think it was Kansas City. And you’re right, it was nine or 10 years ago. But that’s where we first met and, obviously, we’ve been connected ever since. So yeah I’ve enjoyed getting to know you and following you on Hunt Gather Cook and it’s been fun to hunt with you as well.

Hank Shaw:

Yeah so Jim, for those of you who may recognize the name, Jim is not only the brains behind the Kansas Ringneck Classic, which I’ve gone to and which I will link in the show notes to a Project Upland video that they did of the Kansas Ringneck Classic. But he’s also was my guide on the great chicken chase. Apparently this is something that you guys do all the time and I was really, really honored to be to the … I was, I guess the 2018 Chicken Chase. Or maybe it was a 2017 Chicken Chase.

Jim Millensifer:

I think it was 2017 because it was before the book came out.

Hank Shaw:

Yes.

Jim Millensifer:

Before Pheasant Quail Cottontail came out so-

Hank Shaw:

Exactly.

Jim Millensifer:

2017.

Hank Shaw:

It’s Wyoming, and Colorado, and it’s a kind of a race to see how many species you can collect.

Jim Millensifer:

Yeah. We’ve been doing it for seven or eight years now and it changes each year a little bit depending on who wants to participate. So the year that you joined us, the primary species that we were trying to get was the white-tailed ptarmigan. So we did that in Colorado and then if you recall we hunted some blue grouse, and some Colombian sharp-tailed, and even some sage grouse in Colorado.

And then we jumped up into Wyoming and hunted some sage grouse up there and common sharp-tail. So that was a big year, five different chickens in five days. This year, as an example, we started over in the Saratoga area and hunted sage grouse, blue grouse, then made our way over towards Jackson Hole and hunted ruffed grouse and blue grouse there, and then double back to Cheyenne and hunted common sharped-tail. So four different chickens over the course of six or seven days.

So some years we even hunt prairie chicken in Kansas before or after the trip. One year, when you could still have lesser prairie chicken, I actually hunted and harvested eight different chickens: lesser and greater prairie chicken, ptarmigan, rough grouse, blue grouse, common sharped-tail Colombian sharped-tail, and sage grouse all over the course of about 10 days. So yeah-

Hank Shaw:

That’s pretty amazing.

Jim Millensifer:

September’s a big month for chickens out west.

Hank Shaw:

That’s pretty amazing. I mean I kept talking to people like, “Yeah who really, really hunts these things? They’re like, “Well there’s always Jim.” You’re-

Jim Millensifer:

A lot-

Hank Shaw:

I mean tell everybody what’s on your license plate.

Jim Millensifer:

WWCHXDN.

Hank Shaw:

And it is?

Jim Millensifer:

Winner, winner chicken dinner.

Hank Shaw:

You are the king of the wild chicken dinners.

Jim Millensifer:

I love hunting chickens. And I catch hell from some of my buddies, especially the biologists, who … We were actually up in North Dakota just this last week. The Sandhills of Nebraska and then up into North Dakota.

And I tell people I’m hunting chickens and they look at me … In fact, I got stopped in North Dakota by a game warden and he saw that I had three rooster pheasants, and this was on Saturday. And he said, “Well now you can go watch a football game.” And I said, “No, now I’m going to go chase chickens.” And he looked at me kind of goofy and said, “We don’t have chickens in North Dakota.” And I said, “Sure you do, you got sharp chickens and that’s what I’m going to go after is some sharp chickens.” So if it’s a grouse, to me it’s a chicken and I love hunting them.

Hank Shaw:

And both of the birds that we’re going to focus on today are members of the grouse family. The white-tailed ptarmigan and Himalayan snowcock. So we want to focus a little bit of a background, so I spent a fair bit of time in Alaska and when I talk to people up there about ptarmigan hunting, it’s always kind of a chuckle and a laugh.

Because everyone who lives in Alaska has a crazy story about killing a rock or a willow ptarmigan begin with something not normal. My favorite is I have a friend named Jill who lives in Juneau who, apparently, chucked the Nalgene water bottle at a ptarmigan up in northern Alaska and whacked it, and then ate it in the camp.

So I’m not sure that’s a legal method of take but everyone up there it’s like, “[inaudible 00:07:45] they’re hunting, do you actually hunt ptarmigan?” “You can kill them with rocks or with Nalgenes or anything there. But in the lower 48 it is quite a bit different in terms of, at the very least, getting to the birds. And I’m going to say that their squirrellier in the lower 48 than they are in Alaska.

Jim Millensifer:

I will confess I’ve never hunted Alaska. So I haven’t had the opportunity to hunt any of the three species ptarmigan that are up there; it’s on my bucket list to get to Alaska and hunt willow and rock. But my only experience in hunting ptarmigan is Colorado.

And I live in western Kansas now, but I was born and raised and lived the first 48 years of my life in Colorado. So I live in Kansas but I’ll always be from Colorado. And white-tailed ptarmigan are fairly common in the mountains of Colorado. But when I say, “Fairly common.” It’s tough to find them and you got to know how and where.

But when you get to the locations where they ought to be, it’s just a matter of hunting and finding them; it’s kind of like prairie grouse are. So I have no experience of hunting them in Alaska, but I got plenty experience, maybe too much experience, hunting in Colorado.

Hank Shaw:

Very interesting birds. So the white-tailed ptarmigan is the only ptarmigan that lives in the lower 48. And so far as I can tell, there are a number of places where there are remnant populations from the Ice Age. And some are in Montana, some in … I believe there’s still a remnant population in the Pecos wilderness as far south as New Mexico. And so they live on these weird sky islands at very, very high Alpine tundra, I guess, at the top of mountains.

And then in the 1960s, the various fish and game commission’s of the western states decided that it was a really good idea to say, “Hey, why don’t we expand the range of this particular bird beyond the sky islands where they existed as it stood?” And they brought them to California, they brought them to … You went to mountains of Utah, they brought them to Colorado.

And as far as I can tell, the only states that you can still have them in the lower 48 are those places where they were introduced plus Montana. So Idaho, Montana, Colorado, Utah. I don’t know if they’re in Nevada, but I do know that there’s a very short season here in Northern California too.

Jim Millensifer:

Yeah the only knowledge I have of people that have harvested ptarmigan are either Utah or Colorado. I know that the other states that you mentioned have short seasons, but I’ve never run across or met anyone that’s even hunted them in those states, let alone killed a bird. I do have a colleague or a hunting connection that works with Pheasants Forever who hunts them regularly in the Uintas in Utah, and hunts them fairly successful there. But he’s the only guy I’ve known that’s hunted them elsewhere other than Colorado.

And frankly I only know … Unless they’ve hunted with me, I only know half dozen other people maybe that have hunted them in Colorado. So there’s not a lot of people that pursue them for a variety of reasons, but they’ll always be near and dear to me.

Hank Shaw:

Yeah I’ve hunted them in California, and I’ve not yet even seen a bird, let alone shot one. So it’s like a one week season … It might even be a five day season. And the limit is two birds and just two birds. You can’t … There’s not even the triple the daily bag limit deal like we have the most birds; it’s just the two.

And maybe 10 years ago, yeah, probably about 10 years ago the California fishing game put out a press release looking for ptarmigan hunters, because they have no real grasp of how many birds there are, are they still there. Is there any hunting pressure on them at all? And I know of maybe a half a dozen people in California who’s even tried for them, and I don’t know a single person here who’s actually shot one.

Jim Millensifer:

Well it doesn’t surprise me. But, again, if somebody wants to shoot a white-tailed ptarmigan and not make the trip to Alaska, I think Colorado and Utah are pretty safe bets as long as you do a little bit of work ahead of time and either … And with social media has changed hunting so much. There is so much information that’s available for folks, whether it be hunting specific sites on social media, or birding sites on social media. There’s great ways to gather the knowledge and expertise, but if somebody has the desire, I think Colorado and Utah are the two prime states.

Hank Shaw:

Hey, I’d like to take a moment to say that Hunt to Eat is a proud sponsor of this podcast, which makes sense because I own and wear a lot of their shirts, hats, and other gear. When you reach into your drawer to grab a shirt to wear to a barbecue, or a conservation event you always grab the same one right? Well you’re about to find your new favorite tee. Head over to hunttoeat.com and check out their line of hunting and fishing lifestyle hats, hoodies, tees and more.

They’re super soft they’re a great fit, and they’re designed and printed in Denver, Colorado. Be sure to check out the new line of hunter angler gardener cook apparel and use the promo code Hank10 for 10% off your first order. That’s Hank 10, H-A-N-K 10, and you get 10% off any Hunter Angler Gardener Cook merchandise you feel like picking up and wearing to your next event. Thanks.

So everybody listening to this is thinking about, “Hey, maybe I should do that. Maybe I should actually make that trip.” And I’ve always described both lower 48 ptarmigan hunting, as well as … And you’ll know more and we’ll talk about snowcock in specific in a bit. This is the sheep hunting of the bird hunting world; you have to train for it.

Jim Millensifer:

Absolutely, absolutely. And only train for it but if you’re not accustomed to altitude, then you’ve got to plan your trip around adjusting to altitude. I’m fortunate I, again, being born and raised in Colorado, and I played football in college in Gunnison, and the stadium that we played at or the field we played at in Gunnison is widely known in small colleges being the highest football stadium in the world; it’s almost at … It’s like, 7,800 feet-

Hank Shaw:

Wow.

Jim Millensifer:

Elevation. So I grew up and hunted and other activities at altitude. So even though I’ve lived in Kansas now for almost 12 years, when I go home to Colorado I don’t have any problem adjusting to the altitude. But somebody that’s coming from sea level or 200 or 300 feet, or 2,000 feet elevation whatever, if they’re coming from that type of area, then they not only have to be in good shape from a cardiovascular standpoint, but they need to be prepared from an altitude standpoint. And generally if you get to altitude for a couple days before you start anything aggressive from a cardiovascular standpoint, you should be fine. But you’ll recall the year that you hunted with us-

Hank Shaw:

Yeah Jordan.

Jim Millensifer:

Yeah, one of my buddies. He got to … It was sad, he got within probably-

Hank Shaw:

Spitting distance.

Jim Millensifer:

From an elevation … Yeah, from an elevation standpoint, he was less than 100 feet of additional elevation, give or take and within a quarter mile of where we were we shot ptarmigan. But the one thing about altitude sickness is that there’s nothing that can help you except going down. So when we knew that was what he was suffering, I told him, “The only thing I can promise you is the only way it will get better is to go down.” So that’s really, from my standpoint, not only being in good shape from a cardiovascular standpoint, but being prepared for the altitude.

Hank Shaw:

Yeah, I mean I will tell you so I live in Folsom, California, and it’s an elevation about 260 feet but it’s at the base of the Sierra Nevada Mountains. So the year … And so in 2017 I knew that the hunt was coming up. And I knew that, in general, white-tailed ptarmigan do not live below 11,000 feet in really anywhere except maybe some places up in Montana.

But in Colorado, and Utah, and California touch they’re 10,000 feet and above for sure. And I did two things. At the gym I did that stairway to hell, it’s like an escalator that never stops and that helped a lot in terms of just getting cardiovascular fitness. But then every chance I got, and it was almost once a week and definitely once every other week, I would get up as high as I could in the Sierra Nevada and just hike around and just … I was actually scouting for deer, and for mountain quail, and for mushrooms so it wasn’t there just to hike.

Hank Shaw:

But I would make sure I was up there, up there, up there, up there and I had no problem except for coming down. Coming down was the harder … Because when we went up, it was like an endless stairwell. But coming down, the loose rocks and that’s when I got blisters.

Jim Millensifer:

So I’ve joked with different people about the ptarmigan hunting and I share with them that there’s like three methods to hunting ptarmigans in Colorado. But the people that I have taken that have it on their bucket list and have traveled to Colorado, like you did, I make them work, right? So if you recall we started at about-

Hank Shaw:

10,000

Jim Millensifer:

9,000 … Yeah, I was about 95 or under 10,000 feet. And we were fortunate we got into chickens at what maybe 12-

Hank Shaw:

12 and a half.

Jim Millensifer:

Yeah 12.5. And it was about a two mile walk, so there wasn’t … Except for the very end it’s where we had a pretty good climb for the last quarter mile or so. It’s a pretty gradual … To gain 1,000 feet in a mile is not that difficult or unusual.

But when people ask me about ptarmigan in Colorado, I share with them that there’s really three ways to hunt them. You can do what we did. There’s 54 Mountains in Colorado that are over 14,000 feet, and there’s another 60 or 70 that are at 13,000 feet. So when you do the math, that’s 120 plus locations in the state of Colorado that go well above timberline.

And that’s where ptarmigan are at as you said. They’re they’re going to be anywhere from 11,500 to 12,500, or 13,000 feet. And they change during the season but during September and early October when you generally hunt ptarmigan in Colorado, they’re going to be at that 12,000, 12,500 maybe 13,000 feet.

So in Colorado, there’s lots of places that have elevations that are that high and the majority of those, as you found out when you joined us and when you did your research, the majority of those locations are on national forests. And almost all of them have some type of established hiking trail that gets you to the top of those mountains.

So whether it’s the Continental Divide trail, or whether it’s a specific trail for a specific mountain, you do a little bit of research and you can find trails that start at 9,000 or 10,000 feet that you can park at, many of them have established parking areas, and then you just hike to above timberline. So when I take people ptarmigan hunting, that’s how we do it. I’m going to pick a spot that I know and we’ll hike for an hour and a half or two hours.

I also share with people, “If you want to cheat, there’s several roads in Colorado, you can go to the top of Mount Evans, you can go to the top of Pikes Peak.” Those are mountains that are over 14,000 feet. So you could drive above timberline and those areas have pretty specific rules about where you can hunt.

You got to be at least a half mile, I think it is, away from the established roadway, but you could cheat, and you could drive to the top one of those mountains, and you could then hike from the top of the mountain. And if you worked hard, you probably could find ptarmigan at some point in time.

And a lot of the birders that do the tours and want to see ptarmigan especially in the springtime, that’s what they do. They’ll go over Vail Pass, or they’ll go over Loveland Pass, and they’ll spot birds with their spotting scopes from a long distance. So that’s really the second way to drive and then hike from an established roadway. I think that’s cheating, personally, and that’s … I’ve never even done it, so I wouldn’t know where to go other than like the areas that I just spoke about.

And then the third way that people hunt ptarmigan is they’ll literally do backpacking excursions where … A lot of guys will do this or some guys will do this north of Rocky Mountain National Park. You can’t hunt ptarmigan in Rocky Mountain National Park, but outside of the park you can and there are some areas above timberline that you can hike to.

And so these people will … It’s more like a snowcock hunt. They will carry 50, 60 pound backpacks areas like that. So those are really the three ways, but like when you were with us and when I get calls from people that want to hunt ptarmigans, I generally know an area where we’ll park at 9,500 or 10,000 feet and then we’ll walk for a couple hours, and get above timberline, and typically find chickens.

Hank Shaw:

It’s a nice balance. I don’t know that I really want to do a back country ptarmigan highs at 13,000 14,000 feet for three days; I mean I suppose maybe. But I like the fact that it is a day hunt, but it’s also a very difficult day hunt.

Jim Millensifer:

Absolutely.

Hank Shaw:

I’m going to guess that September is probably your month.

Jim Millensifer:

Yeah, in Colorado they actually have it broken down in a couple hunting management areas. So the locations that is generally hunted, it’s about a three week season. And it typically opens on a Saturday … It always opens on a Saturday, but somewhere around the 10th of September, give or take; so whenever that closest Saturday is. It generally opens then and it’s open for about three weeks.

Hank Shaw:

Gotcha.

Jim Millensifer:

There’s other areas in the state that the season actually goes all the way into November.

Hank Shaw:

Like [crosstalk 00:23:42] the snowcock season goes into November which is-

Jim Millensifer:

Right.

Hank Shaw:

The same.

Jim Millensifer:

Right. Well the thought process is … I’ve never even seen a ptarmigan that wasn’t brown and white. I either have seen ptarmigan in April, or May, or June when I was just hiking, staying in shape, and climbing mountains. And, of course, those ptarmigan were white turning brown. Or when you hunt in September, they’re brown turning white. So I’ve never even seen a fully brown ptarmigan or a fully white ptarmigan.

But the reason that … And it’s especially in the southern part of the state, so down near Ouray, Telluride, and Durango down in that southwestern part of Colorado, people hunt to ptarmigan all the way into November. And the thought process is if you want to harvest a bird that is mountable … So the bird has gone through all of their molting, and all the feathers are hardened so your taxidermist can do what he needs to do with it easily, and the bird’s totally white and they’ve got the big red eye comb; those birds you got to shoot in late October November.

Hank Shaw:

Yeah.

Jim Millensifer:

And one of these years I’m going to do that. Part of my problem is that’s when I’m chasing grouse, sharped-tail grouse, prairie chickens-

Hank Shaw:

And ditch parrots.

Jim Millensifer:

Yeah and pheasants. And in fact this Saturday quail and pheasant season opens in Nebraska. So it’s tough for me to take a trip to southern Colorado looking for ptarmigan that’s totally white when I can be hunting so many other species. But one of these years I’m going to do it because I would love to have an all white beautiful ptarmigan mounted.

Hank Shaw:

They are cool. I mean one experience I definitely remember … There’s two things I remember about [inaudible 00:25:45]. One, I could not see them on the ground. You could see them on the ground, you goes, “They’re right there.” It’s like, “They’re right there.” I mean, “I don’t know, just let him fly off, shoot them when they fly. I can’t see them, don’t wait for me.”

And then the second piece of that is that they are not the fiercest fliers. There are a lot of birds that I have hunted, notably any quail, that is significantly more difficult to hit in the air than a white-tailed ptarmigan.

So once they got flying, I could not … You’re just looking right at them and I’m like, “They’re like boulders”. And then they flew and but then it was pretty easy, at least for me, and I ended up getting a limit at that point, which I think is it might be … You tell me if that’s the case where is you can find them, it’s not overly difficult to actually bring to ground. Right?

Jim Millensifer:

Yeah they’re not the most challenging bird to hit. And, frankly, they’re not … We have a lot of, I guess they call them [dusky 00:26:48] now, but I’m an old guy we’ve always called them blue grouse. But you know how the forest grouse have a reputation of being kind of dumb and will just walk away from you or run away from you? Ptarmigan are not a lot different.

So yeah the challenging part of ptarmigan is not hitting them when they flush, it’s getting to them and finding them. But once you get to them and find them, they’re not that challenging to hit. Frankly, they’ll fly… Sometimes they will fly very far and you can get them up again if you weren’t within shooting distance when they first flushed, but-

Hank Shaw:

Like the [inaudible 00:27:30] are.

Jim Millensifer:

Yeah but the bottom line is the challenging part is getting to them and finding them. But to your point, once you find them, they’re not that difficult to bring down. And I’m at the age where shooting a limit isn’t as important to me today as it was 25, or 30 years ago, 40 years ago. But most people that I’ve taken ptarmigan hunting, it’s a bucket list deal, and they’re just so excited when they get one. Shooting two or three … The limit in Colorado is three. Shooting a second or third bird is just icing on the cake. But they’re not very big-

Hank Shaw:

No.

Jim Millensifer:

So from a culinary standpoint, if you’re going to try to have a meal with ptarmigan, by all means, you better do everything you can to get a limit because [inaudible 00:28:21]-

Hank Shaw:

Yeah it’s one per person pretty much.

Jim Millensifer:

Yeah and you better have some side dishes.

Hank Shaw:

Right, yeah. One roast ptarmigan, one by itself plucked in whole and we can talk about plucking in a minute, because I know how much you love to tell that story. But let’s talk gear for a second. So I use a 20-gauge over and under Franchi [inaudible 00:28:45], which was a great gun for that. And I would think I was using … I don’t know, I actually think I was using Hevi-shot sixes or something crazy like that. But, I mean, my guess would be sixes/sevens would be a good shot size and really any gun that you’re comfortable carrying up a side of a mountain.

Jim Millensifer:

Yeah I’m an old man, so I have a 20-gauge. It’s a light a gun as I can carry. It’s a Benelli and it weighs about five pounds six ounces. So from my perspective, lighter is better. I’ve never been a big sling guy, although when we started hunting snowcock, I did start putting a sling on my gun. But whatever gun you’re comfortable with, 12 or 20, I would just say that be prepared to carry it, or have a sling at least for a good portion of the hunt just to make it easier on you.

And in terms of shot, yeah I use light lighter sixes, 2-3/4 inch lighter sixes. The same as I use for sharped-tail, and blue grouse. Any chickens that I hunt in September or October, I’m generally shooting lighter sixes. But you’re right, a 7-1/2 would work fine. And hell, frankly, an eight probably would work fine, but-

Hank Shaw:

For ptarmigan yeah. Because you’re not-

Jim Millensifer:

For ptarmigan-

Hank Shaw:

Very big.

Jim Millensifer:

Right.

Hank Shaw:

They’re basically like a big Hungarian partridge or a chucker. They’re bigger than a chucker, but only a little bit.

Jim Millensifer:

Yeah, I think once you get them broke down, I think they’re like a big pigeon basically, both from a [crosstalk 00:30:30]-

Hank Shaw:

Well yeah, yeah-

Jim Millensifer:

Standpoint.

Hank Shaw:

Because they look like a big pigeon.

Jim Millensifer:

Right, exactly.

Hank Shaw:

In terms of gear I remember I had … I don’t even think I brought … I got this cool pair of Filson brush pants, the thin cloth ones. But I’m pretty sure I didn’t even wear those for that because it’s all above the treeline. And the boots I remember was the biggest deal. I have a really, really nice pair of heavy mountain boots, and that I remember being super important because there’s so much loose rock way up high. I wanted something that held my ankles in. Other people were lightweight and stuff, but I needed something to kind of lock my ankles in, so otherwise … Because it’s shifting rocks everywhere when you go up there.

Jim Millensifer:

Yeah both from a pant or shirt standpoint, and coat standpoint, and boots, ptarmigan hunting is like hunting and mountain climbing at the same time. Now most of the climbing that we did was on established trails. But you’re right, there are some areas where it becomes a little bit more challenging and there’s loose rocks.

And then when you go off trail which, obviously, we had to go find the birds and then you’re, basically walking up this tundra slope, you need really good footwear. Now today they make fairly light, waterproof stuff that people use when they’re climbing mountains that are great, give you good support, and are lightweight; but that’s what I recommended.

Now I’ve hunted ptarmigan in Colorado in shorts and a T-shirt. Because sometimes it’s the 10th of September, 15th of September and even up at that altitude, it might be 50, 60 degrees and you’re so close to the sun that I think it’s way warmer. But I’ve also-

Hank Shaw:

You got to work in your tan, too.

Jim Millensifer:

Yeah, exactly. But I’ve also hunted ptarmigan in Colorado on the 15th of September where I’m in a blizzard. So you just … And I think this is what I told you before you came out, you just got to be prepared because I can’t tell you what it’s going to be like. You can look at weather forecasts and, obviously, they’re better today than they used to be. But you might be at 12,000 or 13,000 feet and it still might be 50 degrees, and sunny, and no wind. Or you could be at the same spot and have a 25 mile an hour wind with corn snow, or freezing rain, or heavy wet snow-

Hank Shaw:

Yeah.

Jim Millensifer:

You just never know. So you got to be prepared for any of those.

Hank Shaw:

Yeah, I mean, that’s true that any really [inaudible 00:33:25]. I mean, even just days before I went on that trip with you, I was hiking in the Sierra Nevada. And I was at the top of a 10,000 foot mountain and you know how you can feel the lightning coming? There’s a weird sort of static electricity thing?

Jim Millensifer:

Absolutely.

Hank Shaw:

I felt that and immediately went down as far as I could, and it started thunder and lightning within minutes. And so it has been a sunny and apparently warm day 15 minutes before that.

Jim Millensifer:

It’s not as tough in Colorado in September, but if you’re on those same mountains where we were hunting ptarmigan in May, June, July, they teach you to be off those mountains by noon or 1:00 because it’s inevitable that storms are going to roll into those mountains in Colorado in the afternoon.

And when they come in, they come in fast. I’ve been at … We were above Aspen … This was many, many years ago. But we were above Aspen on a mountain called Snowmass, and we were almost 14,000 feet and we saw a storm coming in, and I thought I was going to die that day. Lightning, and hail, and it’s scary to be in a storm like that at 13,500 or 14,000 feet. But it’s not as typical to have those storms in September, it’s more common to have the wind, the cold, and snow.

Hank Shaw:

Gotcha. Speaking of wind, and cold, and snow. Tell us about snowcock. So let me start by giving some people an idea of what this bird is. It’s a very large grouse species native to the Himalayas. So there’s the Himalayan snowcock, which is in the Ruby Mountains in Nevada. And there are several other snowcock that live in Asia but do not live here.

So the Fish and Game Commission in 1961 decided that they were going to … Because Nevada, if you’ve ever hunted it, it’s not a game rich state. So in the 60s they decided that they wanted to introduce this Himalayan grouse, interestingly, only to the Ruby Mountains. I’m not entirely sure why just there. It might be the only super, super high mountains in Nevada.

But at any rate it’s a pheasant cousin, and it can go up but it can be up to seven pounds. Which so the very big snowcock can be about the size of the very big sage grouse. And it looks kind of like a gigantic chucker, not the same, but it’s more chucker like than any other gamebird in United States and the chucker also from Asia, they’re from the Caucasus Mountains in Georgia.

So they started to bring them here from Pakistan. And the first [inaudible 00:36:17] was brought in and 1961, and they brought 2,000 birds over from Pakistan. And from 1963 to 1979, they were doing introductions in the Ruby Mountains in Nevada, and they don’t know how many are up there.

So the season for snowcock started in 1980 and nobody really knows how many snowcock are up there, but the range is anywhere from 500 to 2,000. So they are a … everybody knows where this bird is, it’s in the mountains and the trick is actually get to them.

And I got some stats from the Nevada fishing game. No season since 1980 has there ever been more than 23 birds shot in an entire season. And the average, on any given year, is two birds for an entire season by all hunters into the high of 23; and it’s an average of eight a year, and which is fascinating.

Jim Millensifer:

Crazy. I-

Hank Shaw:

So you’re in a rare club my friend.

Jim Millensifer:

Well like I said, I’d rather be lucky than good. I had never even heard of the bird until about three years ago. And I’ve got this group of guys that I hunt out with and you’ve hunted with three or four of them. These guys are these old biologists. I’ll be 60, these guys are 63, 64, 65; so they’re all three or four years older than me. And they’ve all known each other since their college days, they all had connections to the University of Wyoming in one fashion or another. So they all either get their undergrad work or their grad work at the University of Wyoming. So really good guys, hard hunters, great shape, we hunt well together. So one of them, Alex, had learned about this bird and when he started talking about it, I thought he was just full of crap. I thought it was all a joke because … You’ve met Alex and that-

Hank Shaw:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Jim Millensifer:

Wouldn’t be unlike him right to come up with some story? So I-

Hank Shaw:

“We have to go hunt the pink junkadoo, it’s only-

Jim Millensifer:

Yes.

Hank Shaw:

On this mountain in Nevada.”

Jim Millensifer:

Yeah, [inaudible 00:38:38] exactly. So after doing some research and figuring out that he wasn’t kidding, we put together a trip last year in September; so 2018 in September, we did our trip to the Ruby Mountains. And there were four of us and-

Hank Shaw:

Thanks for the invite, by the way, I really appreciate that.

Jim Millensifer:

Yeah you’ve said that a couple times. Anyway what amazed me … And again, we mentioned social media earlier. The fact that the most that’s ever been harvested is 23, and the average is seven or whatever number you said, or two, I guess.

Hank Shaw:

Eight-

Jim Millensifer:

Yeah.

Hank Shaw:

Is the average.

Jim Millensifer:

Okay so that the point is I think those numbers are going to increase. Because we’ve hunted them now two years and I’m telling you the popularity of this bird has increased significantly, and I think that the state of Nevada would tell you this.

You have to have a hunting license, obviously, and they sell … They’re pretty, pretty cheap actually compared to some other states. I think my total license was hunting six days this year was like 68 bucks; and by the way that includes fishing.

But it’s pretty economical, but they keep pretty good records obviously, you got some good numbers. You have to have a permit, they don’t charge you for the Himalayan snowcock permit. So you’ve got to have a daily bird license and for how many of the days you’re going to do it, or you can buy an annual. But you have to buy this bird permit and or get a bird permit; they don’t charge you.

And then you’ve got to fill out a survey over the course of the three or four months after hunting season. And so that’s, obviously, how they’re keeping track of how many people hunting and how many birds are harvested is through this permitting process.

But I would venture to say that the popularity of hunting those birds and the fact that it’s going to get on more people’s bucket lists is going to increase the number of hunters there. And there was a podcast, or not a podcast, a Project Upland did a video-

Hank Shaw:

They did it.

Jim Millensifer:

On snowcocks. And one of the guys that did that video now works for Pheasants Forever, I know he was successful hunting them again this year. So whether it be social media or whether it be web based productions that you get on YouTube or whatever, I think more and more people are going to hunt them.

And there’s only a couple spots to go to so you’re going to see more pressure; that’s the bad news. The good news is once you get there, there’s really a lot of areas to go to if you’re willing to hike and hunt, there’s plenty of various goes to. This year we only saw one other hunter where last year we saw 13 to 14 hunters.

Hank Shaw:

Oh wow.

Jim Millensifer:

But we packed in quite a bit further this year and only saw one other … Let back up we did run into two as we were heading out. So only saw three other hunters this year as far back as we went in.

Hank Shaw:

Is it physically more difficult than ptarmigan hunting?

Jim Millensifer:

Yes, only because you’re carrying a 50, 60 pound backpack with all of your gear; tents, sleeping bags, food, water, or filter systems, etc. So yeah it’s more challenging because we packed in and we camped. Now if you were … And we talked about this one when I said some people hunt ptarmigan do the same thing; well then the challenge would be similar.

But this year, as an example … And anybody can do the research, Lamoille Canyon is where most people start from. And you can either go up to Island Lake or up to Lamoille and it’s called the Ruby Crest Trail. So there’s tons of places that you can pack into different mountain ranges or specific ranges where you can hunt.

Lots of areas that you can go to where you won’t run into other people, but you’re basically starting in the same general area. But, again, what again what made it difficult for me is the fact that I got to carry everything that I’m going to be using.

Now as lots of people backpack and if you’re an experienced backpacker and used to carrying and all that stuff, and then it won’t be that much of a struggle. But for me, it was tougher than ptarmigan hunting because it wasn’t a one day hunt, it was a five, six day hunt.

Hank Shaw:

That is the true back country upland hunt. I mean and plus you’re always above 10,000 feet right?

Jim Millensifer:

Pretty much. We backpacked in this year about seven miles, give or take. We went over two mountain passes, so packing in we got to an elevation of almost 11,000 feet and started at like 9,500 or 9,000. So we probably gained close to 5,000 elevation on the up and down going over two passes to get to where we camped. And then, of course, from where we get our base camp, then you get up at 2:30 or 3:00 in the morning and climb to basically the top of a range near where you’re camping to hunt. So-

Hank Shaw:

So you glass them right?

Jim Millensifer:

Well, again, I’ve only done it twice and there’s probably people that are way more knowledgeable. The year that I was successful, the first year, we actually hiked in on like the 28th or 29th of August and did some scouting. And so September 1st was the opener, I knew where I was going to hunt, I knew where I was going to sit, had a plan in place. Now like most hunting, all good plans … It was dark and it was tough to find where I wanted to be.

Alex and I were on together we got as far in as we could, as far up on this mountain as we could, hiked for maybe hour and 45 minutes, and then we got rim locked. We were basically on a cliff edge and couldn’t continue going forward, our only option was to backtrack and it was getting to be close to shooting light, so we’ve just made the decision to hunker down.

And as soon as we did, we started hearing birds. And it’s the most unique thing I’ve ever experienced while hunting. I’m in this big bowl at about, I don’t know, close to 11,000 feet, hunkered into a to a cliff and one of the noises that snowcock make reminded me of a cow elk calling for her cat; that’s the only way I can describe it.

So if you’re an elk hunter and you know when a cow is calling for her calf, that’s the sound that these snowcock make, and we had this going on all around us. And it’s like this amphitheater, if you will, I mean it was like this perfect acoustical setting where you could hear it below you, you could hear it to the right, you could hear it to the left. And all the research we had done, people told us that, “If you get a chance to skillet shoot one, do it.” And I understand why now because once you see a snowcock fly, you get why you shoot them on the ground if you can.

So we were sitting in this cliff area, we had mountain goats above us; big, big Billy maybe 20 yards to the left of me and then went over this ridge above us. But as we’re sitting there my buddy Alex, we’re hearing birds all around us and my buddy Alex says, “I think there’s one below us.” And I got my glasses and I’ll be I’ll be damned if this snowcock was maybe 35, 40 yards below us and just kind of walking on the rocks.

And he went out of sight, there was an outcropping that he went under, and so we lost his sight. And then he emerged again and it was reaction, there was no conversation between Alex and I. I’ll never hear the end of it, but I just picked up my shotgun and shot it. And-

Hank Shaw:

And so it’s like that Colorado sage grouse that you both jointly shot?

Jim Millensifer:

Yeah I shot that sage grouse. I definitely killed that sage grouse, I will go with … yeah. Anyway-

Hank Shaw:

So you’re not bitter?

Jim Millensifer:

No, no, no. Because on that trip, that would have been the Colorado Grand Slam.

Hank Shaw:

Right.

Jim Millensifer:

Ptarmigan, blue grouse, mountain sharped-tail, and a-

Hank Shaw:

I know-

Jim Millensifer:

Sage grouse.

Hank Shaw:

It’s rainy, and horrible, and [inaudible 00:48:08]. And I’m like, “You know what? I’m done. I’m going to sit and look at the back of my eyelids while you guys flog the wet plain for sage hen.”

Jim Millensifer:

Well I still believe I killed that sage hen. Anyway so this snowcock just basically … I shot it 35, 40 yards below me, I was using my 20 gauge. I did have the shot that I sized, I was using some turkey shot and I had my full choke in. So 35, 40 yards was perfect distance for that gun and that ammunition. And I hit the snowcock and it rolled, and then it just kept rolling.

Hank Shaw:

Oh no.

Jim Millensifer:

And this bird rolled about 150 yards down, it just kept tumbling down. I would say cliff but it really wasn’t a cliff. Crazy, cray slow, but this bird just kept going down, and down, and down and it got to a point where it stopped. Now you couldn’t see it, I knew basically where the bird ended his roll. But I certainly couldn’t, even with good binoculars, I couldn’t see the bird from where I was sitting.

So I told Alex I said, “I’m going to start down you need to stay here and don’t take your eye off where we think that bird stopped, where that bird landed on the roll.” Well it took me over 30 minutes to get down this cliff area and I worked my way down. I got down to the area where I thought the snowcock would be and, of course, I can’t find it. So I looked back up and now I can’t even see Alex.

Hank Shaw:

Oh wow.

Jim Millensifer:

Because the color of the rocks and the fact that he’s wearing camo. So finally I find Alex and he starts giving me hand signals, and he [crosstalk 00:50:16]-

Hank Shaw:

“Back, over.”

Jim Millensifer:

Exactly. He got me within about three feet of where that bird was. And the great news is the bird didn’t get damaged too much rolling down that hill. No I hear of people since, we’ve done this, I’ve heard of people that they either lose a bird, never find it, never retrieve it, or the bird is so damaged that whether it be trying to mount it or, from a culinary standpoint, it’s of no value; which is sad. But yeah it was blind luck. The fact that first time ever hunting them, opening morning, five minutes into shooting light I killed a snowcock it was like winning the lottery.

Hank Shaw:

Yeah, I mean, it’s even luckier than me getting a limit the first time I ever hunted ptarmigan.

Jim Millensifer:

Absolutely.

Hank Shaw:

So-

Jim Millensifer:

You were-

Hank Shaw:

I hear-

Jim Millensifer:

Lucky, you were with someone skilled, that’s how you [inaudible 00:51:09]-

Hank Shaw:

Well that’s not wrong. So the thing that I think, and correct me if I’m wrong, but the reason why you needed to be there at shooting light is because, from what I know about the Himalayan snowcock, they hang out where they’re going to hang out and then right at the beginning, they flock a bit because they’re a flocking bird like chuckers.

They will fly down somewhere and then spend most of the rest of their day foraging back upwards. And so they’re looking for seeds, and berries, and grass, and bugs, and things just like all the different grouse do. And so the trick is to like … Because they’re all going to fly down and then apparently they are in a flock separate, so they’re not tight like chuckers, but there’ll be all around and kind of working their way back up during the day.

Jim Millensifer:

Yeah in the two years I’ve hunted them, I’ve never seen more than five or six in a general area, so I don’t sense that they’re like chucker, or huns, or quail where they’re like in a cubby. But yes my experience is that they’re high, that they fly down, and then they work their way back up. So if you’re at a lower elevation but you’re looking for birds, and you’re watching them and viewing the cliff areas, and the rocks, and so forth, it’s not uncommon.

This year opening morning we had back packed in and were pretty tired. And so the first morning that we hunted, we didn’t get up at 2:30 or 3:00 and hike up the mountain, we just got up and had coffee and a little bit of breakfast and then we started scoping the ridges. And we actually counted six different birds within maybe a 25 or 30 yard area on this ridge.

And in fact this year although we didn’t harvest a bird, I saw 19 different snowcock on the … When I say 19, it’s possible … That first day we counted six on the ridge line and then when we went to hunt them, we kicked up birds that could have been some of those same six that we’d seen earlier in the morning. So maybe it wasn’t a total 19 separate birds, but I had 19 sightings or we as a group had 19 sightings over a four day hunt.

But you’re either up on one of those ridges before sun up, and you see the birds fly down, and then you put a plan together to try to intercept them as they’re walking back up. Or if you don’t see birds fly down, basically, we would get to the top of one of these ridges … And the area that we camped, we had maybe four different areas that we could hunt.

Because snowcock are notorious for if you blow them out of an area, though, they might … It only may take them five minutes to fly, or less, to fly across the valley that you and I, it would take us two days to walk. And they’re notorious for getting blown out and not coming back for days. So you’ve got to pick an area where you can hunt two or three different ridges or mountains.

But you either spot them when they’re coming down; this is my perception, my experience. You either see them fly down and then you try to intercept where they’re going to come back up or, in my case, one flew down and made the mistake of walking within 40 yards underneath us as it began its search for food and so forth.

Or you start at a higher elevation and slowly work those slopes back and forth losing elevation as you go and hoping that what’s going to happen is you’re going to come over a little knoll, or ridge, or outcropping and you’re going to flush them by surprise. That’s kind of my experience on chucker.

Hank Shaw:

Right.

Jim Millensifer:

You’re more successful coming over the top of something or over a ridge. So twice this year, I busted pairs that we’re feeding and I came over a little knolls or little outcroppings, and the birds were probably 75 or 100 yards away so they weren’t within shooting distance, unfortunately. But-

Hank Shaw:

Frustrating.

Jim Millensifer:

Well, but it was cool-

Hank Shaw:

Right.

Jim Millensifer:

It was cool to see them, it was cool to see them fly. It’s kind of like … I’m not a big eastern rough grouse hunter, but you hear stories of people, “Oh I had a great day. I heard 19 and I saw three, and I actually got a shot at one of them. But man, what a great day. I heard 19.” Well that’s kind of a way I … And maybe I’m spoiled because I’ve harvested one and will always have the snowcock to my name. But seeing them is pretty special from my standpoint.

Hank Shaw:

For sure. Well if you actually … It doesn’t sound like you mounted your bird, it sounded like you picked and ate it up on the mountain.

Jim Millensifer:

Well the taxidermist that I work with won’t mount anything that’s not hardened up, and the bird that I shot was very, very young. And we ran into another hunter and when he heard that I shot a bird he asked if he could see it and I pulled it out of my backpack. And he kind of laughed and he said, “That’s the smallest snowcock I’ve ever seen in my life.” The so snowcock I shot was like a big pheasant, it was probably three and a half pounds; three pounds maybe. And so it was a young bird, so be it, I’m glad I killed the snowcock.

But I knew that my taxidermist wasn’t going to be able to mount it. Now I’ve since learned that there’s a guy over in Reno that’s an expert at mountain snowcock and is really, really good at taking care of the bird that hasn’t been hardened, or the feathers aren’t hardened, or that’s been damaged. So if I’m ever fortunate enough to harvest another one, I would like to have it mounted. But no, we cleaned the bird and ate it in camp that night.

Hank Shaw:

On a jet boiler you said?

Jim Millensifer:

Yeah. So in 2018 when we were up there, they had a fire ban and the only way you could cook was on a jet boiler or a camp stove a small backpacking type stove.

Hank Shaw:

Gotcha.

Jim Millensifer:

There was no open fires, there was no … You couldn’t do anything other than cooking on a little camp stove. So the only thing we had was a jet boiler. Now I had brought tortillas and I had also brought some seasonings because we knew we were going to be fishing and thought that, “Okay well, somehow we’ll figure out how to cook these little brook trout while we’re up there.”

So I had some seasonings, and some tortillas, and when you eat when you’re backpacking having a tortillas is pretty good with peanut butter or something. So we actually skinned, I saved the wings and the tail feather, and as much as the felt of the bird as I could. But we then boned it out and we used the jet boiler to cook that fish. So we just put a little bit of the-

Hank Shaw:

Fish or the bird?

Jim Millensifer:

Oh I’m sorry well we did both. But the bird-

Hank Shaw:

Not in the same day?

Jim Millensifer:

Not in the same pot at the same time. Now we cooked that snowcock in the jet boiler, little bit of seasonings, kind of poached it if you will. And then we, basically, shredded the meat and ate it on tortillas. And I tell you what, I’ve heard this from others and I would love to have the opportunity to eat a snowcock in a real setting, but it was amazing. And then maybe part of it was because we were on top of mountain.

Hank Shaw:

Right.

Jim Millensifer:

But it was an amazing bird to eat. Very, very white quail-like or rough grouse-like flesh; very, very light in color. Even though they walk up the hill, their legs were nothing like a pheasant leg or wild turkey, they were very, very tender. The thighs and legs were light just like the breast, it was a great bird to eat. Not that jet boiling would be the preferred cooking method for the future. And I wish I’d harvested that bird and done it early enough to have you do a jet boil or recipe for snowcock in your book, but maybe on your next edition.

Hank Shaw:

There you go. It’s a very rare experience. I’ll get up there at some point and we’ll see. Hopefully there won’t be a fire ban when I’m up there so I can at least roast it.

Jim Millensifer:

Yeah. This year we did … There were only three of us that were able to go this year. And we did not … Again we saw 19 snowcock, we didn’t harvest one. But we did … My buddy Jim shot a blue grouse while we were up there, and there was no fire ban. And so we had some blue grouse while we were hunting up in [Kent 01:00:58] this year which is enjoyable. But yeah we-

Hank Shaw:

It is my favorite grouse is the blue grouse.

Jim Millensifer:

People say rough grouse are the best, I think a blue grouse is every bit as good as a rough grouse and there’s more of it. I mean if it-

Hank Shaw:

Exactly

Jim Millensifer:

The bird. So-

Hank Shaw:

It’s like a difference between a speckled belly goose and a pintail. They’re very similar in flavor it’s just a speck of [inaudible 01:01:20].

Jim Millensifer:

Yeah and in this case more is better.

Hank Shaw:

Hey, I’d like to take a minute to thank the C.C. Filson Company for sponsoring this podcast. Filson is the original Alaska outfitter, they started in 1897 outfitting miners for the gold rush in the Klondike. And ever since then, they have been committed to making the best equipment available. I know I’ve worn Filson for 20 some odd years, both in the field and just around town.

I am committed to their upland game gear, I think it’s the best, it stands up to everything and it lasts forever. Be sure to check out Filson’s holiday gift guide at billson.com for all your hunter, angler, gatherer gift needs. They have awesome stuff, not only for upland, but for walking around town gear travel, stuff as well as really good stuff for deer and duck hunting. So check them out at filson.com.

So I want to kind of finish up by just running … Because you and I both eaten ptarmigan more commonly. And one interesting side note for people listening is if you can actually buy something very close to a ptarmigan in mailer.

So D’Artagnan is the purveyor of not only farmed meats, but they are allowed to sell British game to the American market; so you can buy this online, I’ll put a link in the show notes. You can buy what they are calling Scottish grouse.

Well the Scottish grouse that they’re selling is really a willow ptarmigan. And it’s a dark meat and it’s gamey, it’s strong, it’s a strong meat. And I have found that it’s very similar to these white-tailed ptarmigans that you and I have hunted. And that I think the singular thing about a ptarmigan, at least in Colorado, is that they’re distinctive. It’s a very dark meat but not terribly big, and it’s a strong but not unpleasant flavor. It’s not a neutral … Like a pigeon is pretty neutral red meat bird, ptarmigan is not.

It’s been challenging to find real good recipes for them and I’ve looked primarily in Scandinavia. So Iceland and Scandinavia cook a lot of ptarmigan, and then the British grouse. So the famous grouse that’s on the whiskey, that’s basically a ptarmigan, it’s a red meat bird.

So another link that I’ll put in the show notes is Jim living in Kansas, on this ptarmigan hunt, brought a thing, and amazing thing, a bread item and he calls it bierocks. What the heck is a bierock? It’s like a bird croutons in a bun. I’m like, “I must eat one.” And I think I ate like six of them and they were amazing even though they were squashed, been like, I didn’t care. They were fantastic and they kept for two three days in the truck. And like I must learn about this thing.

And so Jim set me on the path to creating bierocks which is basically imagine a bun, a really easy dough to make, stuffed with particularly onions and kraut and then some sort of meat product. Well it is phenomenal for not only sharped-tail grouse, but for these ptarmigan. And it’s one of my favorite things to do with this particular bird; not that I get tons of them. But I’d be interested to hear … I think, didn’t you serve ptarmigan at the event that we did in the run up to the Ring Net Classic?

Jim Millensifer:

They weren’t ptarmigan because, of course, I think all the ptarmigan that we had harvested the year before, I gave to you; didn’t have any myself. But we used the prairie grouse.

Hank Shaw:

Oh yeah.

Jim Millensifer:

So same recipe that you created after that trip but we use prairie grouse, so it was a combination of sharped-tail and prairie chickens. And we had had a really successful year last year up in the Sandhills in Nebraska in early October hunting sharped-tail and prairie chickens. Two or three of us have gone up a couple times so we use the prairie grouse but, basically, the same recipe that you created [inaudible 01:05:44] touch on prairie chickens.

And the distinction that … And I didn’t get it until I did, was when we make bierocks here you cook the meat ahead of time, and then you put it all together and bake the bread. Well as everybody, I’m sure or most people that are listening to this podcast, know you don’t want to overcook wild game.

So the interesting thing that you had done on your recipe was we use raw meat and it just cooked as the bread dough was cooking in the oven. From my perception, it’s the perfect use for some of those birds that you would consider tougher from a culinary standpoint just because of the darkness of the meat and the strength of the flavor. I’m used to doing stir fries and that type of thing with sharped-tails and making bierocks with them is a great alternative. So I’m certain it would be good with the ptarmigan.

Hank Shaw:

So have you, historically cooked your ptarmigan?

Jim Millensifer:

I either cook them like a dove. I’ll take the hindquarters … And first of all I’ve never plucked them. I’ve always skinned them, I’m not the plucking-

Hank Shaw:

I plucked them in the hotel room as a matter of fact.

Jim Millensifer:

I know you did and I still can’t believe there were no feathers in that room when you were done.

Hank Shaw:

So a side note, so this is funny story. So Jim has a history in the hotel business. So we get back from this hunt I’m over the moon. I have my three ptarmigan and then you gave me the one that you shot; so I had four. So it’s kind of one per and it’s just me and Holly at home, I’m like, “Sweet two great recipes it’s going to be fantastic. I got to pluck these birds.”

And I think it was a couple days later I think I’d kept them cold, and I think like, “These birds.” And she’s like “Well where are you going to pluck them?” Like, “You don’t want to pluck them in the parking lot?” “No, no, no, I’m going to pluck them I the hotel room.” Said, “No you’re not.” I’m like, “Yeah, of course, I am.” It’s like, “No, no you’re not.” Like, “Look, I’m in the hotel business that is a super douchey thing to do to people who have to clean up the rooms, just no a thousand times no.” I’m like, “Don’t worry it, it’ll be fine.”

So they go out … I think you guys go for a beer or something, or food, or some such like that. And so I start and I basically am plucking directly into the garbage bag in the bathroom. Or no, no, it’s actually next to Katie’s [inaudible 01:08:18]. And so at the end of it, there’s maybe five feathers that escapes the plastic bag, and I pick each one up and put it in a plastic bag and close the plastic bag. And you’re just standing there you look like, “How is that possible?”

Jim Millensifer:

I never would … I would have lost any bet. I would have bet that my credit card was going to be charged $150 for excess feathers in the room, but it was amazing. [crosstalk 01:08:46].

Hank Shaw:

It’s just-

Jim Millensifer:

You’re [crosstalk 01:08:49] definitely the plucking Jedi; you definitely earned that. No, historically, we’d either cooked them like you would a dove. So I would take the breasts and I will marinate them, and maybe cook them on the grill, or do a ptarmigan popper just like you would a done popper, only they’re a little bit bigger so you can get maybe four or five poppers from one ptarmigan.

Hank Shaw:

Yeah, it makes sense.

Jim Millensifer:

And then I would also marinate the hindquarters in the same marinade, but then I would just grill those by themselves and eat them off the bone like you would a quail leg or a partridge leg.

Hank Shaw:

Yeah.

Jim Millensifer:

And really they’re a lot like sharped-tail or the other prairie grouse where the hindquarters is a little bit lighter than the breast meat which-

Hank Shaw:

Right.

Jim Millensifer:

People find it unusual.

Hank Shaw:

And ptarmigan don’t do a whole lot of walking around, so they’re they don’t have the sinews the way a pheasant does.

Jim Millensifer:

Yeah the hindquarters of a ptarmigan are probably the best thing to eat, I think.

Hank Shaw:

That gives us a pretty good overview. I really appreciate the time, I mean we’ve gone a little over an hour and 10 minutes. And tell people out there, if they want to get involved in Kansas Ringneck Classic, how would they go about doing that?

Jim Millensifer:

So our website is kansasringneckclassic.com, www.kansasringneckclassic.com. It’s an event that that is not open to the public, but we’re always looking for sponsorship. And as a sponsor at a certain level, then you can participate in the hunt.

This will be the 9th year for the event and in over the last eight years, we’ve raised close to half a million dollars that’s gone back to wildlife and habitat conservation efforts, and also getting youth and new hunters involved in the sport. And it’s a grassroots deal, all volunteers and after our expenses, everything goes back to the effort. So look at the website, my contact information is on the website, so we’re always looking for new sponsors.

And the other thing is we’re just trying to promote hunting tourism in western Kansas. I’m fortunate, I usually hunt six or seven different states a season, but it’s not because I think those other states are better than Kansas, it just extends my season.

Now I shot 10 roosters in North Dakota this last four or five days. I got back Monday, but we can’t even have pheasants in Kansas until the 9th of November. So by hunting other states, I have the opportunity to extend my hunting seasons. But Northwest Kansas is a great place to come and hunt quail, and pheasant, and prairie chicken and we’d love to have the guests.

Hank Shaw:

I can vouch for that; it’s a pretty incredible place. And it’s also the place where I’ve seen the singular largest whitetail deer in my entire life. I’ve seen bigger on television, but we were quail hunting, this is some years back, and this giant huge thing ambles out of a ditch and went, “What the?” It had to be a Boone and Crockett deer. I mean it was immense, it made the Hartford deer look small. And it just wasn’t season, so he just sort of ambled away and clearly had a calendar.

Jim Millensifer:

Yeah, they’re smart, they’re smart.

Hank Shaw:

Pretty big.

Jim Millensifer:

We have big mule deer here in western Kansas as well. And I’ve said it before, I’m born and raised in Colorado, the biggest mule deer I’ve ever seen are in the western plains of Kansas.

Hank Shaw:

All right, Jim, it’s been great having you on and I will see you in Arizona in December.

Jim Millensifer:

All right, appreciate it. Thank you.

Hank Shaw:

Take it easy. Thanks again for listening to the Hunter Gather Talk podcast. Be sure to subscribe to this podcast on iTunes, or Stitcher, or wherever it is that you get your podcasts. Leave a comment in the review section of those platforms because it really helps me a lot.

Also you will see an extensive list of show notes on my website which is Hunter Angler Gardener Cook, you can find that at huntgathercook.com. And be sure to follow me on social media, I Hunt Gather Cook on Instagram, and there is the Hunt Gather Cook Facebook group. That group’s a private group so be sure when you answer the questions to tell me in those questions that you heard about me on the Hunt Gather Talk podcast. I’m Hank Shaw, I’m your host, thanks again for listening and I will see you again next week.

 

You May Also Like

Hunt Gather Talk: Basic Cheesemaking

I talk with Claudia Lucero of Urban Cheesecraft in Portland on how to make basic cheeses with little or no special equipment. It’s a total geek out session!

Hunt Gather Talk: Sandor Katz!

This episode about fermentation is with one of the legends of the practice, Sandor Katz. We dive deep into the word of ferments in this talk.

Hunt Gather Talk: Pressure Canning

A podcast explaining all about pressure canning, with expert Cathy Barrow. We discuss myths, dispel fears and talk about our favorite projects.

About Hank Shaw

Hey there. Welcome to Hunter Angler Gardener Cook, the internet’s largest source of recipes and know-how for wild foods. I am a chef, author, and yes, hunter, angler, gardener, forager and cook. Follow me on Instagram and on Facebook.

Leave a comment

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *