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Welcome back the Hunt Gather Talk podcast, Season Two, sponsored by Hunt to Eat and Filson. This season will focus entirely on upland game — not only upland birds but also small game. Think of this as the podcast behind my latest cookbook, Pheasant, Quail, Cottontail, which covers all things upland.

Every episode will dig deep into the life, habits, hunting, lore, myth and of course prepping and cooking of a particular animal. Expect episodes on pheasants, rabbits, every species of quail, every species of grouse, wild turkeys, rails, woodcock, pigeons and doves, and huns.

In this episode, I talk Travis Warren of the Upchukar Podcast about, well, obviously chukars. 

Travis is an avid chukar hunter, and we dive deep into hunting tips, gear you might need, habitat, food habits and the ecology of this most challenging of upland game birds, which were brought here a century ago from the borderlands of Asia and Europe.

For more information on these topics, here are some helpful links:

• Some notes on the biology (and sounds) of a chukar.
• Want to buy chukar meat? You can, from D’Artagnan.
• A cool article on hunting chukars from Project Upland.
• My recipe for roast chukar.
• Another fantastic way to cook chukars: pan roasting.

A Request

I am bringing back Hunt Gather Talk with the hopes that your generosity can help keep it going season after season. Think of this like public radio, only with hunting and fishing and wild food and stuff. No, this won’t be a “pay-to-play” podcast, so you don’t necessarily have to chip in. But I am asking you to consider it. Every little bit helps to pay for editing, servers, and, frankly to keep the lights on here. Thanks in advance for whatever you can contribute!

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You can find an archive of all my episodes here, and you can subscribe to the podcast here via RSS.

Subscribe via iTunes and Stitcher here.

Transcript

As a service to those with hearing issues, or for anyone who would rather read our conversation than hear it, here is the transcript of the show. Enjoy!

Hank Shaw:

Welcome back to another episode of the Hunt, Gather, Talk podcast, sponsored by Hunt to Eat and Filson. I am your host, Hank Shaw, and I’m glad to have you back. Today we are going to be talking about chukars. Yes, chukars, the hateful gray birds that live in the Great Basin of the United States. They are an interesting non-native species that was brought to this country many years ago, and they have naturalized in many of the harshest environments of our western part of the United States.

Today, I am talking to Travis Warren of the Upchukar podcast. He is one of the best chukar hunters I know, and we are going to talk about everything from tips on finding the birds, to hunting, to gear, to shot sizes, to dogs, and everything in between. Without further ado, here’s Travis.

Welcome to the Hunt, Gather, Talk podcast, Travis. I am super happy to finally get you on the show. We’ve been going round and round quite a bit, and you were too busy out there chukar hunting, and I was too busy out there chasing other random upland birds, so we didn’t actually get a chance to hunt with each other this past season, but we’ll certainly to fix that next season. Welcome to the show.

Travis Warren:

Well, thanks. It’s interesting being on the opposite side of the microphone, as they would say. I’m usually the host, so being the guest is very unique, but pretty cool. So thanks for having me on.

Hank Shaw:

So that begs the question, Travis, you are the mind and the madness behind the Upchukar podcast, correct?

Travis Warren:

Yeah, that is my creation. So it’s a bit of a passion project that I have, and it’s almost coming on about two years now. Really, it was interesting in how everything started. I haven’t really shared much of my backstory, but for me, I literally had knee surgery back in 2018, March, and I was bored out of my mind, sitting at home for two weeks while my knee healed up enough to go back to work.

So I just got to writing. I just started writing stories. My father-in-law started. He would write stories, and we would go on fishing trips or hunting trips, and he would hand-write them. He would write multiple pages, and he would send them to my grandmother, and she would have them posted or published in the Crater Lake newspaper, where she lived.

I would always read his stories and I always just thought they were hilarious. They were just so natural, and you could really picture yourself being there, and I thought, well, I wonder if I could write a story? I sat down, and I started writing a story, and that was titled, My Hunting Partner’s Like My Wife’s Hairdresser, and it really just kind of all snowballed from there.

I talked to a buddy and he said, “You know what people are really into?” I said, “What’s that?” He said, “Podcasts.” I said, “My God, what is that?” He was explaining it to me, and I said, “Well, yeah, I know who Joe Rogan is, and I know who the big guys are.” But I said, “Man, when I have any technical issues at home, like with the wifi, I have to ask my wife to help me.” So creating a podcast was such an intimidating endeavor, but really, when you get down to it, if a guy like me can start a podcast, I guess it gives hope for anybody.

Hank Shaw:

Yeah. I mean, this is the second season of Hunt, Gather, Talk. In the first season, I was in the exact same situation where, I’ve run this website for 13 years, and so I know the backend of that sort of thing, but audio and video were just such a stretch for me. But it actually is, I mean, once you get the hang of … I use Audacity. Once you get the hang of your editing software so that you have your sound is as good as it can be and all of that kind of jazz, it’s really not terribly difficult to get started doing this and to really get something that’s … I mean, this season is pretty niche from my perspective, in that we’re only dealing with upland animals. Upchukar is even niche-ier niche because you’re dealing with the hateful gray birds.

Travis Warren:

Well, and I think that’s the key. So if you’re going to do anything, right, you’ve got to find the gap, and I guess my interest was always very narrowed in the first place. When I started writing, my writings centered around my dogs, and then all my back country elk hunting and deer hunting that I was doing, and I still do as well, if I draw a tag.

So, for me, it was a natural progression into talking about chukar in a formal setting. Obviously, you talk about stuff you know. I mean, you don’t want to go out and try and record stuff or talk about stuff that you would just really have no concept of. So it’s just stuff that’s in my wheelhouse. It’s stuff that I’m really passionate about. So it all comes naturally and it all comes really easily.

It’s funny, when you start doing stuff like this, how many people you become exposed to that share the same mindset as you, and being in a niche market, chukar hunting specifically, I think a lot of people were really excited to finally have something, especially chukar hunters, have something that’s theirs. Because if you look at a lot of the other podcasts across the board, as great as they are, nobody was really speaking about the things that they really are passionate about. Chukar hunting is such a … it’s very niche, like we’ve already said, but it is filled with a bunch of hardcore passionate individuals, and-

Hank Shaw:

It’s a mental illness, let’s say. 100% a mental illness.

Travis Warren:

It very much is. It very much is. I mean, thank God I have a wife who is very understanding, and for five and a half months of the year, she could care less if I’m at home on the weekends. But now that the season’s over, all my honeydews are really stacking up, so it’s one of those things, but, yeah. You know, chukar hunting-

Hank Shaw:

You’re based in Reno, yeah, so are you from Nevada or have you lived in other places?

Travis Warren:

Yeah, that’s a long story, in and of itself. I think we only have an hour, but I’ll start … I’ll try to make it as quick as possible. So I was born in Los Angeles and I moved around quite a bit on the West Coast, Northern California, and then into Washington. Then about ’97, my mom and I, and my brothers and sister, we moved to England. I grew up and I spent my last years of high school and college in England. Then in 2001, I moved back to the States, actually en route to New Zealand. I had no interest in staying in the States. I was on my way to New Zealand with a two-year work visa, and I stopped into Reno to actually visit family, believe it or not, and as the story goes, I met my wife and I never left.

Hank Shaw:

I was going to say, the only thing that could keep you in Reno for more than the time it takes to get in and out of Reno would be something important like that. Because Reno, man, Reno 911 is a documentary.

Travis Warren:

Well, I think that Reno gets a bad rap, and I’ll tell you that I spent-

Hank Shaw:

Sell me on Reno. Go.

Travis Warren:

It’s not really hard to sell you on Reno. Like I said, I’ve lived in a lot of places. I’ve visited places like Oslo, Norway. I’ve lived in the South of France. My folks lived just outside of Toulouse for some years, in the [inaudible 00:07:59]. So I’ve seen a lot of the world. It’s, for me, one of the most special things about living here, is just the free access to anything you want to do.

So if you think about it, and this is not a plug for more people to move to Reno, but this is one of the things that I love the most, and that is that you can live in Reno and it takes you three and a half hours to get to San Francisco. It takes you eight hours to get to L.A. It takes you eight hours to get to Vegas. You can get to Salt Lake in eight hours.

I mean, you’re really centralized in some major arteries to get you wherever you want to go, and then the whole state’s 87% public land. So you can go anywhere, for the most part, and enjoy what has been put aside for us, and you don’t have to ask for permission. That was one of the things, when I started really settling here and started seeing those opportunities, and now, especially being so addicted to chukar hunting, it’s even more reason for me to love Reno.

Reno is really vibrant. I mean, Reno, obviously, is always going to have a gambling side to it. But I think that we have this outdoor adventure place that, really, people are starting to notice.

Hank Shaw:

That’s a fair point.

Travis Warren:

We have 45 minutes to a closest ski resort, which is, you know, all of the ski resorts in Tahoe are 45 minutes to an hour away.

Hank Shaw:

And you’ve got Pyramid Lake.

Travis Warren:

You’ve got Pyramid Lake, which has world-class Lahontan cutthroat, and literally, Pyramid Lake is 30 minutes from my house. So I [crosstalk 00:09:35]-

Hank Shaw:

This is how I know Reno, really, is because whenever I go up to fish in Pyramid Lake, Crosby’s is always booked. The only place I can actually stay is somewhere in Reno, and guess where you’re going to stay if you stay in Reno? By far, the cheapest is some casino, and full disclosure, I hate casinos. I don’t care what kind of casino it is, I hate them all. It’s just not for me. It’s not my deal.

The saddest casino experience I think I have ever seen … Now, granted, I’ve never been to one of the little rural ones, but I was at a famous … I think it was John Ascuaga’s Nugget, and I was watching everybody, because I was trying to find a decent thing to eat, and so I was just walking through the casino to get to my truck, to go out to eat, because I was not going to eat in the casino. It was a kind of a grim sight, of people on respirators pulling the one arm bandit. It just was, it gave me a shutter. So you’re right, you’re absolutely right that Reno is a lot more than just a casino, and I should remember that.

Travis Warren:

It’s a good point that you bring that up, because I think a lot of individuals who travel through or visit, or just have a concept of what Reno is, they just think it’s desert and casinos, and that’s all they think. We have this conversation regularly with people who come into town to hunt, that it’s not until you really get outside of Reno and you start doing things like chukar hunting, or big game hunting, or fishing, that you really start to see the true magnificence of what Nevada is.

It’s a shame that not everybody gets to see that, but it’s also kind of nice that not everybody sees that, because then we’re not have to dealing with too much overcrowding. But that really is the true magnificence of the state, is there are these … it really is full of life, but you have to go look for it and you have to be in the element. There’s this respect for the animals that survive and thrive in the Nevada country, because you have to be tough and you have to be hardy. I think that that just lends to the same character of people who hunt chukar.

Hank Shaw:

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Did you start hunting chukar when you moved to Nevada?

Travis Warren:

No. So, funny story. Well, not funny story. Everything’s a story for me. So when I met my wife, my wife grew up in a family where her dad raised chukar and pheasant, and she would have to go … During the day, she’d have to go collect chukar eggs, and they would eat them like we do chicken eggs. So she would eat them for breakfast, she’d eat them with whatever they were cooking. Then if they wanted it, she’d have to go out in the back with a pellet gun and she’d have to shoot a chukar for dinner.

So that’s what my wife grew up doing, and my father-in-law really kind of sparked the interest. But it was my buddy, Scott, we moved a little bit east out of town, and we literally moved to the base of a chukar hill, and he asked me, “You want to go chukar hunting?” I had no idea what the hell a chukar was. So I trusted him, and my father-in-law had actually just gone to one of those charity banquets and won a shotgun, won a Remington 870 pump.

I said, “Hey, dad, I’m going to go to do this chukar hunting thing. You got a shotgun I can borrow?” So he gave me my first shotgun and that was … and I still have it. Actually, I use that for snowcock hunting now. But I went out, and I believe I saw some chukar. My buddy claimed they were. I was just shooting. Nothing was injured that day, nothing was hurt that day. We educated them, but we didn’t shoot anything.

Then it was kind of a build off of that. It was really exciting, and he and I started hunting occasionally, that was kind of the beginning of it. Actually, we’re still friends to this day, and he’s going to come on my podcast and talk about my first chukar experience, but I didn’t start … So it took me a few years to actually get into chukar hunting, but once I did, it was definitely something that’s always been a part of my life.

Hank Shaw:

You kind of alluded to it a minute ago with your wife’s origins. So we should start by talking about the elephant in the room, and that is, there’s going to be a enormous number of people who are listening to this podcast who are like, “Oh, yeah, I’m a chukar hunter. I shoot chukars all the time,” but they live in Ohio, or Wisconsin, or Virginia, or the valley of California.

So there’s this weird bifurcation of chukars, in that, yeah, if you go on chicken raising sites, you can buy chukar chicks, say that four times, fast, and they’re apparently extraordinarily easy to raise as a meat bird, much like a codorniz quail or other guinea hens-

Travis Warren:

Yeah, [crosstalk 00:15:08].

Hank Shaw:

… or something like that. So there’s this domesticated slice to them. In fact, one day, I live near Folsom, California, and one day, there was a chukar walking down my little cul-de-sac, and I’m like, what the? Because there’s no game bird farm or anything. Somebody must have kept chukars, and one just got out and was wandering around. So that leads to the pet and shoot conundrum.

So they’re a very common preserve bird, and I have to say, you may have a different opinion, but I think they are the most pathetic, sad, unhappy, you feel terrible about yourself, preserve bird there is. Like, there is no greater difference between the chukars we’re talking about and a preserve chukar. Like, a wild pheasant and a pen-raised pheasant is not as different as a chukar is versus a wild chukar.

It’s just sad. They covey up, and they hide in plain sight, and they’re like, “Please don’t kill me.” It’s just, it’s depressing, and this is how most of America hunts this bird. Yet when we find them in the Great Basin, because while, yes, the wild chukar lives in 11 States, because people always forget about Hawaii, they are primarily a Great Basin bird, which is where Nevada is. So let me ask you, have you ever gone to one of those pet and shoots and chased the basically tame chukars?

Travis Warren:

Yeah, and actually, it’s a great conversation … I haven’t gone to a game farm, or I haven’t gone to a planted bird club or anything like that. But we use pen-raised chukar for training, for some field trial stuff, and we use it for our youth hunts. As part of the Chukar Chasers Foundation, two times a year, we hold youth hunts. So we supply all the birds for the kids to shoot.

So I will tell you that a pen-raised chukar is about as flacid as they come, if you’re relating it to a wild bird, and some people might throw their arms up, but I’m going to tell you right now that there is no substitute for a wild bird. There’s no substitute for a wild chukar. They are some of the toughest birds to hunt, and you really have to go out and hunt them wild to have a real true respect for the bird. I do think that, in those circumstances, yes, you’re shooting a chukar, but you’re not really shooting a bird that’s really, I think … Well, they’re really, it’s merely a shadow of itself.

Hank Shaw:

It really is.

Travis Warren:

That’s the unfortunate thing.

Hank Shaw:

I think it’s the bird that has lost the most from pen-raise to … I mean, even, maybe a turkey, you could argue, like a big white Butterball versus an eastern wild turkey, might be a similar distance between what most people are used to and what you get in the wild. But chukar is just, it’s profound.

Travis Warren:

I guess it just depends on what it is you’re trying to achieve. So if you’re just using chukar to train your dog, to work on behaviors, to work on holding, things like that, they’re absolutely very, very beneficial, especially with that unique scent that every bird has, so you want to get that chukar scent imprinted on your dog. But I will say that there’s just no substitute for hunting wild birds.

I had a friend come out from Minnesota this year and hunt with me, and it’s very sobering. It’s very sobering to come out and hunt chukar in truly wild terrain in the Great Basin. It’s, Great Basin is unforgiving, and it’s tough, and it’s hardy, and the people who chase chukar, men or women, are tough, hardy people. There’s a sense of pride, I think, associated with being able to go out there and have a successful hunt, whether it be having birds in the bag or just making it to the truck at the end of the day.

When you can exist where chukar exist in the wild, it’s something that you really chalk up to personal accountability of keeping yourself healthy enough to do that, as well as mentally tough, being able to do that. I’m not trying to oversell the idea. It’s tough stuff, and I think that’s why a lot of people … I think that’s why it’s such a big deal here in Nevada, and I think that’s why it’s such a big deal in other states like Oregon, and in eastern Idaho, and places like that.

Hank Shaw:

Yeah. I mean, there’s the two sayings about chukars, and one is that you hunt them first for novelty and every time after that is for revenge. And then the second thing that, I mean, I don’t know if a lot of people say this, but I sure as hell say it, is that there are no fat chukar hunters.

Travis Warren:

No. [crosstalk 00:20:12].

Hank Shaw:

[crosstalk 00:20:12].

Travis Warren:

You will. Yeah. Yeah, probably. I jokingly say every year I get chukar thighs, because I do, and I just have to buy bigger pants because my thighs just don’t fit in my regular year jeans. You burn so many calories through the day, and, I mean, I don’t know one person who goes and hunts chukar, that doesn’t sweat buckets, regardless of if it’s freezing or hot. I mean, you have to go find them. They are not going to make it easy, and then when you find them, they’re sure as heck not going to make it easy, especially the late season birds.

Hank Shaw:

Well, they’re also, I mean, there’s a reason I call them hateful gray birds, is because I don’t know that there’s another game bird that lets itself be known more, that doesn’t get shot. So there’s lots of birds that are elusive. There are lots of birds that are flat-out hard to kill, in the sense that they’re just, either they’re tough or, like the snowcock, you’ve just got to get to where they are.

Travis Warren:

Right.

Hank Shaw:

We did a whole episode on snowcock and … But chukars-

Travis Warren:

Yeah, actually, I met the guy that you actually interviewed. I met him at the mountains this year.

Hank Shaw:

Oh, Jim?

Travis Warren:

Yeah, he was hunting with my buddy, Garhart Stevenson.

Hank Shaw:

Okay. So the thing about chukars is, I mean, they’re called chukars because of what they say. They just … You can hear this all over the place, and sometimes you can see the damn birds at 100 yards or 150 yards all freaking day. You can chase these guys, and … Like, shut up, and you can’t get a shot at them. So it’s super frustrating. I mean, I’ve gone whole days not finding a grouse in the Sierra Nevada or whatever, whatever, but at least they’re not yelling at you.

Travis Warren:

Yeah. Yeah. Actually, it’s probably the most frustrating thing. And I apologize, actually, I didn’t talk to your buddy from Kansas. I talked to another guy that was on a different podcasts.

Hank Shaw:

Okay.

Travis Warren:

My apologies. But, yeah, it’s absolutely hilarious. So when we had some friends here from Minnesota, like I said, I took them to a new spot, and we literally were surrounded by chukar. You would see them running on the ridge, or you’d see them hop up on a rock, and you’re trying to get your dogs to go in that direction, and they can see you, and they’re busting, jumping, and you’re not even going to … you’re not getting close. There’s no point in even pulling a trigger.

They are the most frustrating things, and nothing is worse than walking back to the truck and they are just laughing at you from the mountain behind you. You just came from there. You just walked that that ridge, you just walked that side of the mountain, and you’re like, “I was just there.” You get down to the flats, and you’re back to your truck, and you turn around, you’re like, “How are they back there and how are they laughing at me?” It’s just the best part about it, sometimes, they’re just laughing at you and just saying, “Yeah, good luck next time, buddy.”

Hank Shaw:

I mean, ducks are the same way, in a lot of ways. There’s all kinds of times where … I think you became a good chukar hunter the same reason I became a good duck hunter, is that I live pretty much in the valley of northern California and ducks are what you do, and if you live in Nevada and you’re an upland hunter, chukars are what you do. So we get this intimacy with the bird, that you really get the opportunity to really get to know this animal on a deep level, in a sense that you don’t get, unless you hunt something a lot, because it’s just, you see them all the time. Then you see them out of …

Because you see them all the time. And then you see them out of season too, where you can figure out what they’re doing at other times of the year. And it’s funny because, especially in Nevada, the different bands of the Paiutes will identify themselves by a particular animal that’s extremely important to them. So around where you live, the Paiutes identify with the cui-ui, which is a sucker fish that lives in the area.

Travis Warren:

Yep, Pyramid Lake.

Hank Shaw:

Weirdly that they don’t identify with Lahontan trout, but apparently the sucker fish was a lot easier to gather in numbers back in the day, before it was endangered. And then there’s another group of Paiutes that identify with the jackrabbit. And there is one that identifies with the trout.

So, I mean, you get these whole societies that are linking themselves to a particular animal that is very, very important to them. And I think in the modern day, the closest you get to that are the white tail hunter, or the chukar hunter, or the quail hunter. And it’s almost become a talisman that you eat.

Travis Warren:

Well, not only that, but it’s passed down into generations. Now obviously, I came into it by proxy a little bit, and I’ve married into the tradition of chukar hunting. But I’ve had an opportunity to meet so many people who still hunt with their grandfather and their dad and themselves, and they still go chukar hunting even this season. And that’s just amazing. That right there shows the importance that it’s passed down. And I mean, really it’s how their family identifies, is we are chukar hunters. And that stretches to so many states within, like I said, eastern Idaho, Oregon, Washington, eastern Washington, parts of California, and Nevada. And obviously, there’s places where you have that in Canada.

Hank Shaw:

Utah, too.

Travis Warren:

Yeah. Utah, Canada, where basically where that Great Basin stretches. And it’s such a part of people’s life through the generations, that it’s really an amazing thing. And even I get to take my daughter, my 10 year old daughter now. She’s been on a couple of chukar hunts with me, from walking in knee-high snow to super hot days.

And it’s a lot of fun to be able to introduce the passion, because you’re not just introducing the concept of hunting. You’re introducing the concept of really revering a species and nature and country. And what it does, is it passes down the importance of preserving these things. Because if the value isn’t seen through the generations, the value is not going to be retained. And so that’s really one of the most wonderful things, just like tribes.

You know, the things of importance are passed down through those generations, so that they are retained and maintained. And that’s kind of the same thing with chukar or elk hunting, or whatever it is that your family is really big into. You’re passing down the importance of conservation and preservation for the generations to come.

Hank Shaw:

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Filson was founded in Seattle, Washington in 1897, when they started outfitting prospectors for the Klondike Gold Rush. And ever since then, they’ve been committed to creating best-in-class gear for the world’s toughest people in the most unforgiving conditions. There’s a reason that their slogan is, “You might as well have the best.”

So do you know the history of chukars in North America?

Travis Warren:

Enough to sound marginally educated.

Hank Shaw:

All right. You start and I’ll fill in the blanks.

Travis Warren:

Well, so chukar were introduced into the US in about 1893, and the first introduction came in Illinois, obviously not exactly a true replication of the country that they were taken from. And really, it took the understanding of getting them into areas that are very similar to the Himalaya, India, places like that, where they exist normally, before they started to actually take hold and thrive. And during that timeframe, like 1893 through up into even the 1950s and ’60s, there was this huge push for implementing and introducing a lot of wild game birds into the US. And the greatest thing about chukar is that chukar have filled a gap, and they’re not competitive with any other species.

Hank Shaw:

It is an interesting thing that the only time that they even hang out with anybody else is sometimes mountain quail and sometimes California quail. And there is no Great Basin, high country grouse. The low country grouse is the sage hen. And it’s just really interesting. I mean, there’s four or five different kinds of, I mean, depending on if you’re a lumper or a splitter, of Alectoris chukar. So Alectoris is the genus. And so if you’re a European listening to this, this is the red-legged partridge of Spain, or it is a very similar red-legged partridge from Pakistan, or the Caucasus or Turkey.

Most of our birds here in North America are from that eastern area. So the first ones were brought from India, but it really wasn’t India. It’s what is now Pakistan. But because they were brought before India was independent of England, and before Pakistan was split off. So the ancient human history of this bird is super-fascinating.

So anybody’s ever hunted them, even in a preserve, knows that they covey up real tight. So the human history of hunting small animals like this only dates back, no more really that we know of, until humans were able to build nets. And nets, they’re fairly recent things. So yes, people would throw rocks or sticks or whatever, pick off the odd chukar 65, 75,000 years ago. But you really have to get into the 20,000 years ago time, this is still a long before civilization, for nets to show up. And there’s evidence of ancient nets. This is in Asia Minor, and really where civilization started, a practice of catching multiple chukars. This is also why this bird is easily domesticated, is because this is a very common game bird where civilization actually began.

So the human history of us with this particular bird goes back as long as we’ve been doing agriculture. And it’s a fascinating thing that it has taken hold, only really in this country, in the hardiest nastiest place.

The Great Basin, as we said, is not for the faint of heart. I mean, if you want to be a good chukar hunter, you have to be fit. And we should actually talk a bit about what you would do to train for a good chukar hunt if you’re not from chukar country, in a bit. But this bird, you can find recipes for it written in cuneiform.

Travis Warren:

Really?

Hank Shaw:

Yeah.

Travis Warren:

That’s fantastic.

Hank Shaw:

I mean, they just call it partridge, but yeah. And all of its native names, no matter where you find it, in the Old World, has something to do with the way it sounds.

Travis Warren:

Totally.

Hank Shaw:

So we call it chukar, because we think you say it’s, “Chuck chuck chuck chuck chuck.” But there’s another part, I suppose, like the “Kick kick, kick, kick, kick, kick kick,” and then every different language calls it something like that, except for Spain and France. But they came at it much later with the red-legged partridge. But this is also a partridge that you can buy in the store, not necessarily your supermarket, but-

Travis Warren:

I see canned versions.

Hank Shaw:

Right? Canned partridges-

Travis Warren:

Canned sugar concepts.

Hank Shaw:

D’Artagnan sells them online. And because, you can either get them pen-raised, much like a Guinea hen, or in the case of D’Artagnan, you can get wild-hunted partridges in Great Britain that are imported to this country. So there is a way to get your hands on a chukar for the dinner table, if you’re not in chukar country.

Travis Warren:

Yeah. No, I actually ran across an advertisement for it. And I just pissed myself laughing, because I mean, people will joke a lot of the times and say that, I mean, if you’re looking at calories per dollar, you’re most certainly going to be a poor person. And if you just want to eat chukar, you could just go out and buy a can of chukar. But it’s such a, I mean, you talk about really just erasing the mystique of the bird. I mean, buying a can of chukar is probably the best way of going, if that’s what you’re trying to do.

Hank Shaw:

I know.

Travis Warren:

But it’s interesting.

Hank Shaw:

It’s the super calorie, negative hunt. It’s among the most calorie negative hunts you can do.

Travis Warren:

Yeah, it is. I mean, obviously that and Himalayan snow cock hunting. But yeah. I mean, chukar hunting is, nutrition and just choosing what it is that you want to fuel your body with while you’re on the hunt. And this actually leads into a really interesting story, if you don’t mind, ’cause I actually wanted to start off with this, and it was actually a thank you to you and your previous guest. You know, let me …

Travis Warren:

So the story basically is, is that I was out on an old clothing weekend, and I had planned to initially camp overnight. And part way through the day, I found out the grandma was going to pick the girls up from school, so I was basically free. And so I decided last minute that I wasn’t going to, I was actually going to come home, and just hang with my wife. So I called her on my way out, and I said, “Hey honey, I’m not going to stay the night out here. I’m actually just going to come home. I’ll be home around 6:30.” So I drove out, and I only had about four hours to hunt. But I had found a new spot that I wanted to pursue from a different direction, because I had messed up the hunt when I stumbled across it the weekend before. So I went out and I parked my truck, and it was about 78 miles from my house is where I went, and I didn’t have phone reception, and I knew I didn’t have phone reception.

But when I went out there, we got into the birds and they were really low and they were actually super cooperative for the last weekend of the year. Historically, birds late in the year don’t hold very well. They’re always pretty spooky. But they were holding really well. And we did really well. We ended up with three birds in the bag, and it was about 5:20 when I started heading back to my truck. I got back to my truck, and there was a glint of sun still on the horizon. And I went to start my truck up, and it wouldn’t turn over. And that feeling of, “Oh shit, this isn’t good.” And then I look up at the mountain, I think, “Well, should I climb back up or should I just stay with my truck and see if it’ll start?” And I knew I didn’t-

Hank Shaw:

Climbing back up to get cell service?

Travis Warren:

To see if I could get cell service. Because it was a new area, and I wasn’t paying attention to my phone. I actually didn’t know if I had cell reception up there. So it was a crapshoot, even that concept. So I thought, you know what? I’m not going to. In a safety and a quote unquote survival situation, leaving your vehicle is one of the more dangerous things to do, because if you get lost, generally Search and Rescue will find your vehicle, or somebody looking for you will find a vehicle way before they’ll find you.

Hank Shaw:

And then there’s chupacabras.

Travis Warren:

There’s always chupacabras. There’s all kinds of strange things out there. So I decided, I’ll just stay with my truck, and I gave it an hour and the truck wasn’t turning over it, wasn’t turning over, and now the sun’s down. And one of the things about being in the desert is that it gets hot during the day, but it will get cold as hell during the night. And I had left and it was a tee shirt kind of day. It was a really interesting end of the year season, but it was a tee shirt kind of day. So I brought tee shirt. I brought an insulating, really just a grid fleece layer, and that rain shell.

And luckily, I had had to take my daughter to a doctor’s appointment. So we stopped at Sprouts and picked up some food for her ’cause she wanted it for lunch. And I had bought a bunch of stuff, which I don’t normally do. I usually, I’m that guy who just eats protein bars all day long. And I had brought a bunch of food, and I had a flat of water in the back of my truck, and I ended up having to sleep out there. My truck actually wouldn’t start. The fuel pump went on my truck. And it’s that moment when you realize, it’s cold now. And I’m in my truck, thankfully. And I do have a survival blanket. And I always prepared for a survival situation, but I wasn’t prepared for comfort, that’s for damn sure.

So I had to crawl in the back of my truck with my dogs, huddle my dogs underneath the survival blanket with me. And we just roughed the night out. And one of the things that I did to pass the time, ’cause I knew I wasn’t going to die or anything. It was boring as hell. ‘Cause as a chukar hunter, I probably have a really bad case of ADD anyways. And so just sitting at one spot for 12 hours until the sun came back up, it was mind-numbing.

So I actually had downloaded your podcast, and I had turned your podcast on, and I listened to it, to its completion. And I thought, you know, I got to tell Hank that. Thanks for making the podcast, ’cause I had something to listen to. And I listened to a Joe Rogan podcast, and it really helped pass the time. And I got about four hours of sleep, and I woke up the next morning at about 6:45, ’cause it’s always that last hour before the sun comes up that’s colder than sin.

Hank Shaw:

Oh yeah. As a dog catcher, we know this.

Travis Warren:

Yeah, you know that. You guys are nuts in your own way. And anyways, I couldn’t sleep anymore ’cause it was so cold. I ended up having a walk out about two miles to the road. And I walked out two miles to the road, and I met a couple of old boys, and they’d been hunting chukar for 50 years. And it was just two brothers. And they were unloading there side by side, and I said, “Hey guys, do you have cell phone reception?” They said, “No.” I said, “So yeah, my truck broke down. I had to sleep in my truck.”

And the look on one of the guy’s face when he said, “Was your wife expecting you home?” I said, “Yeah, last night.” And he was getting really concerned. And I said, “You know, it’s okay guys, I don’t want to interrupt your chukar hunt. It’s not an emergency. It’s just really an inconvenience. It’s going to be 67 degrees outside today. So I’m not going to die of freezing to death. And I have plenty of water.” I said, “There’s a ranch house down the road. I’ll go walk to that.” And they said, “Okay. Well, I’ll tell you what? If you don’t get rescued by 1:00, we’ll be back here at the truck, and we’ll give you a ride into town.” I said, “That’s perfect. I’ll let you know.”

So anyways, I go to the ranch house, and nobody was there. So I had to walk down the road, and a couple of chukar hunters picked me up, a couple of real nice guys with a beautiful [inaudible 00:39:58] center. And they drove me about 20 miles down the road to where reception was, and long story short, after that, a truck came out and all that. But the biggest point of that being is that I had brought enough food, and I knew what food I needed to survive in a survival situation. And I just-

Hank Shaw:

The real question is this, did you have enough tequila?

Travis Warren:

No. See, that’s funny. I don’t bring alcohol out with me. Not because I don’t agree with it, but because I hunt so hard during the day that if I have a beer, I’ll fall asleep. I will be no good. And usually they’re like an hour to two to three hour drive home, and it’s not worth it for me. I won’t have the motivation to make it home.

Hank Shaw:

I’m just messing with you, although I can absolutely feel your pain on that one. ‘Cause when I fished commercially in Alaska, and you work as long as there’s daylight, and in the summertime in Alaska, there’s quite a bit of daylight. And it’s to the point where, when you’re done with that day on the boat, you crack open a single Rainier. And then by the end of the Rainier, you’re like, oh, I need to get my three or four hours of sleep before you get up and do it again.

Travis Warren:

Yeah. I know myself well enough that it’s just not worth it. I just don’t have the … I’m the guy who, if the moment I drink a beer, I have lost motivation to complete any further chores at the house. So I know myself well enough. But I just want to actually say thanks for the podcast.

Hank Shaw:

You’re most welcome. I’m happy to have been able to help through your hours of need.

Travis Warren:

Right.

Hank Shaw:

It is a really good point though, in that a great deal of upland hunting especially is quasi-domestic, in the sense that you hunt farms a lot, or you hide reasonably close to home. And I think of all of the upland hunting that we do, obviously with the exception of outliers, like the snow cock, I think chukar hunting … trying to think. I would say chukar hunting is probably the most back country of all of the upland huntings, ’cause even on my mountain quail spots, they’re never really that far from a road or from somebody, and certainly not pheasants, certainly not … I mean, I can’t think of a quail, and I’ve hunted them all, that takes you into a place where you’re 78 miles from nowhere. But that’s just the nature of the Great Basin. The Great Basin is a very sparsely-populated cold desert area.

Travis Warren:

Yeah. And that is one of the greatest things about chukar hunting, is that you are forced to explore places that not many people have, and you are forced to explore places that you probably wouldn’t, say, for the fact that you’re looking for this elusive red-legged devil. And that’s one of the things that I always talk about in the podcast, that I think is the most amazing thing about doing a chukar hunt, or being involved in chukar hunting in general, is that you get to explore. And I think that that is probably one of the maybe subconscious aspects of chukar hunters, it’s that they’re curious, and that they like to explore. And it scratches that itch, on top of being able to do something that’s tough, and do something that’s fun, and do something that really builds a lot of camaraderie as well.

But yeah, I mean, and to put it in perspective, the place that I went, 78 miles away from my house, is my closest spot. That’s close for me. And not to say that there’s not chukars closer, but when I say I’m going out for half a day, so generally how it works is on Fridays, my kids, I drop them off at 9:00, and I will drive out to that same general area. And I will hunt from about, I get out there around 10:00 or so, and 10:00 to about 1:00. And I drive back in, in time to pick them up from school at 3:00. And so that, generally that area that I go is my quote unquote close spot.

So yeah, there’s times I’ve driven three hours in a day, three hours one way, six hours round trip, just to hunt chukars in a day. And that’s pretty normal. That’s pretty normal for a lot of people. I mean, when I started really getting into chukar hunting and big game hunting, the concept of driving six hours, eight hours, is not a big deal. I mean, it seems-

Hank Shaw:

I’ve done that for pigeons.

Travis Warren:

Have you really?

Hank Shaw:

Yeah. For band-tails.

Travis Warren:

There’s just a sickness involved, you know?

Hank Shaw:

It kind of is. So, okay. So talk to a listener from Maryland or Maine or something. Try to describe for us, put us there. What does it look like to go on a chukar hunt?

Travis Warren:

So really, what you’re looking at, is you’re looking at some of kind of overgrazed-ish, you’re looking at the Great Basin, which if you think about tall rocky peaks, rim rock, which is essentially rock that rims a ridge or the side of a mountain, and you’re generally looking at pretty steep descents to a lot of these places. But it’s open as far as the eye can see. And that’s one of the greatest things about being in Nevada, and being in areas where you find chukar, even in other states, is that when you get into chukar country, it’s unobstructed. The only obstruction you may have is you might be in the bottom of a draw, and you’re just looking at the side of another hill. But essentially you get on top of the peak or you stand out there, and the vistas are amazing. And you have this sense of being utterly alone. And it’s a really fantastic feeling.

Hank Shaw:

Except for the hateful gray birds that are out there somewhere yelling at you.

Travis Warren:

No, they just demand respect. That’s all. They just demand respect. And really, you’re going to be walking a lot. I say walking, what I mean is hiking a lot. We talked earlier about the calorie per dollar is, you’re going to be a poor person if you try and equate it that way. So it requires a lot of walking. You’re going to be walking up high into sometimes 6,500, 7,000 feet elevation. I mean, there’s areas, I’m sure that they’re even higher. But you’re going to be in higher elevations, a little bit of that thin air. But you’re going to be, probably you’re going to see a lot cheatgrass. You’re going to see-

Hank Shaw:

That’s their primary food, by the way, is cheatgrass.

Travis Warren:

Yeah. One of their primary foods, especially in the late season, because obviously anything more readily available is gone. And it’s an interesting concept we can get into, in terms of-

Hank Shaw:

Oh, yeah. I know a fair bit about their food habits, right? All right. So you get out of your truck. You’re in what looks like a Western. And how do you know where to go? You just kind of start walking? Or are they such covey birds, that okay, this covey of chukars is going to be probably within a quarter or half mile of the spot that I last found them?

Travis Warren:

Well, that’s if you’ve hunted them before. So if we’re just talking about an absolute, an absolute noob, somebody who’s never done it before, and they’re trying to just figure it out, the easiest thing to do and the easiest way to start, or at least give yourself a starting point, is you got to find water. Especially early season, this makes it a little bit easier if you’re new to it. Because if you can find water, everything in life, you, me, birds, ungulates, whatever it is, you’re talking about anything that’s got life in it …

[inaudible 00:48:00] it’s, whatever it is you’re talking about, anything that’s got life in it requires water. So in Nevada, there’s areas where water is very, very common and just freestanding water. But there’s also areas where we have to bring in other ways…

Hank Shaw:

Guzzlers.

Travis Warren:

Essentially guzzlers, that’s what I was getting to, is guzzlers. And guzzlers are a water catchment. It’s an artificial water catchment that allows a place that’s generally arid or very arid, it provides an opportunity for rainwater to get caught, or snowmelt to get caught, into an artificial drinking trough. Small game, big game, and there’s others that… It’s delineated, there’s small game guzzlers, there’s big game guzzlers, but in areas where …. And those are generally marked pretty well, whether it’s through the Nevada Department of Wildlife or through even now onX or other sort of digital map services, you can find these guzzlers, but you got to find water.

So if you think of other areas like Idaho or Oregon, a lot of the most iconic places are places along long tracks of rivers, or these large rivers or streams or creeks or whatever. So that’s the basic thing. That’s the most common and easiest thing to do is you got to find water, whether that be a river with steep cliffs near it or adjacent to it, or you need to find springs, those are natural seepages of water that do occur through the water table. And those are generally pretty easy to spot if you just stand and you look at a mountainside, you’re going to see areas that have more heavy vegetation. So sometimes you’ll see quaking aspen. Quaking aspen can be a place, especially if you’re grouse hunting, that might be an indication of where there might be water. You’re really going to find things like rose brush bush, or rose bush. You’re going to find maybe some cattails. There’s places that I hunt, where sometimes you can see these long, sort of cattailish-looking grasses. So those are good indications.

Anywhere where it looks maybe greener than somewhere else, or darker, which looks like it might be a moist area, there’s probably going to be water there, and that might be a good place for you to start looking. It’s a little bit harder as the season goes on, because free water is not as necessary for birds because depressions on rocks, they can get dew off of grasses, they can get moisture from other areas that aren’t a centralized water source. But it’s still a good thought that, even in late season, if you know where there’s a consistent water source throughout the year, and I guess that’s the key point too, consistent water source. You can generally start there and start to branch out. They might not be on top of it, like they were early season, but they’re probably going to be somewhere in a few mile radius of that area.

Hank Shaw:

They will go several miles away from the water source, eh?

Travis Warren:

They can, yeah, it just depends. A lot of it depends on pressure. So if there has been a lot of human pressure in that area in the early season on that water source, then absolutely they could move off. They could move as far… So to give you an idea, during breeding season, which is leading up into March now for us, when they start pairing off and they start mating, they’ll move off, one, two miles from where their “home range” is. And then they’ll kind of come back together towards the early season, and that’s when you find these sort of mega-coveys, but they move off. So for them, flying and moving is not that big of a deal. I talk a lot, especially with my buddy Rob Jones over in California, is that birds don’t necessarily get… you don’t kill them all.

They’re not that dumb, especially chukar. They just move. They’re not going to say, “Well, gosh, every day I’m going to wait for George to get up here and just shoot the heck out of us. No, I don’t need to be next to this water source because I can get my water from grasses now. I can get my water because now there’s snow melt in the rocks. I can drink from that. I don’t need to be here anymore. I’m just going to move off, and now I’m not going to get pressured every day.” And that’s when you start really having to push out. And that’s why chukar hunting is tough, because you might get lucky early season and find a lot of birth centralized, especially if it was really, really arid summer, you might start finding them near water sources. But as the season progresses and the pressure happens and free water is not as necessary for them because they can find it elsewhere, they’re going to move off and they’re going to find little crevices, little canyons, little Shangri-Las as I call them. And that’s where they’re going to hang out.

Hank Shaw:

Every time I’ve hunted chukars, the first time, they’re not actually yelling at you. It’s after they bust the first time that they start yelling at you. Usually it’s that first encounter for me at least has been the, “Oh my God [inaudible 00:53:07]!”, and then you start trying to chase them and then they start chucking at you. But I know that some other people will say that they hear them yelling at you first, and then you try and find them. So describe a typical shot at a chukar. If you think about a typical shot at a typical upland bird, it’s trap. It’s a rising bird directly away from you. Chukars, in my experience, are not quite so easy.

Travis Warren:

Yeah. Well, that’s time-of-year dependent. In the early season, you’re going to get a lot of immature birds. You’re going to get new birds, essentially, that don’t have the education like the older birds. So you’re going to sometimes that birds are going to hold a little bit tighter. And so, to give you an idea, like in the beginning, I just got a semiautomatic very, very late in the season. But I’m always a two barrel guy, I’ve been shooting a Franchi Instinct. And I’ll shoot an IC in the top, and I’ll shoot a modified in the bottom. And that runs me pretty good throughout most of the season, because my shots are kind of in that, well, just above the … just at the bottom of your feet, in the, “Oh my God, oh my crap, I just pooped myself,” the fear of the bird flying out from the bottom, maybe up to 30 yards out. So, it kind of gives you that nice intermediate range.

Later in the year, it just depends on how pressured the birds have been. If you end up finding yourself in a spot where other hunters have been, then those shots might be 30 yards plus sometimes. And you want to have maybe a full choke, you want to start putting a full choke in that bottom and move that modified to the top to get that little extra range. But, about that 30 yard range is probably a pretty good estimate in terms of where those birds generally like to flush. And a lot of it has to do, too, with how you approach them, how your dog is handling them, or even if you’re a dogless hunter, and I was for many, many years, it’s just about seeing and reading that terrain and knowing where you should get into to try and give yourself the most advantageous.

Because if you come from above them and push them down, especially if you don’t have a dog, you’re going to screw the pooch there, for lack of a better way of putting it. So you want to try and hunt them from below and try to push them up to get them to fly up or maybe even run. But once they fly down, sometimes they’re really hard to find [crosstalk 00:55:47] without a dog.

Hank Shaw:

That’s interesting, because traditional ruffed grouse hunting, the saying is that you hike up and hunt down. And so this is the opposite.

Travis Warren:

Without a dog. So that was advice on how I would do it without a dog. Now, with a dog, if you can get your dog … I always liked to hike to the top, and that’s probably a lot of chukar hunters’ mentality, is you just want to get to the very top. And then you start hunting from the top and you do start hunting down, but one of the tactics that really can be beneficial, if everything works out, is that if your dog is coming downhill on point, if you could try and get in a position, so not coming over the top of your dog, but maybe trying to pinch them in between. So trying to hike down a little bit and walk up and try and push them up so they fly up higher rather than just fly super low, maybe just above the sagebrush and cut down to give you just a little bit better of a shot, that’s a good tactic as well. But it really just depends on just how the birds are, how your dog’s handling the birds, and how the birds are behaving.

And sometimes you really just don’t even have that opportunity. Because once your dog gets on birds and finds birds, maybe you’ve walked for the last four hours and you haven’t seen birds. So you just want to just get in there and try and get a bird in the bag. But everybody has their own little techniques, but that’s one of the things I’ve really been trying to do this year is to try and get, not behind my dog and walk forward, but below my dog and try and pinch the birds a little bit in between us so we can get them to fly or flush [crosstalk 00:57:23] …

Hank Shaw:

Kind of a lateral [inaudible 00:09:24].

Travis Warren:

Well, flush a little bit higher and then try and dictate where they fly. So if you come from behind your dog, they’re going to fly low and they’re going to usually do a little J hook, whether it’s to the left or to the right. But if you can come perpendicular to your dog or even from below, you can try and at least push the birds in whatever direction that you want to keep them. So if you want to try and keep them a little higher… That’s an ideal world and it doesn’t always work because sometimes birds just… You get on birds and they flush and you just pull the trigger.

Hank Shaw:

One other piece of the flush that’s important to note is that, at least in my experience, a covey does not all flush at once. [crosstalk 00:58:00]

Travis Warren:

Correct.

Hank Shaw:

Most of it does, but there’s almost always a couple of stragglers, just like mountain quail, and many of the Western quail will do the same thing. They don’t all blast at once like a bobwhite.

Travis Warren:

Yeah. So there’s a sentry bird, and how they delineate and how they choose who the sentry bird is, and if it’s the same bird all the time or they [crosstalk 00:58:19] switch roles, who knows?

Hank Shaw:

No, that’s the guy that had to buy the tequila the last night. “You get to stand up and dry out.”

Travis Warren:

“Hey buddy. Yeah, you’re on lookout today.”

Hank Shaw:

“All right.”

Travis Warren:

So there’s always a sentry bird that donates its time and service to the covey and will keep track and keep an eye out. That’s generally the first bird that you’re going to see that’s going to fly. So whether or not that first rise is with that sentry bird as it flies, or you see that first bird go and then all of a sudden the covey goes, but even at that, I always try, and if I don’t get one on the first shot and the birds are already too far away, I always try and hold because there’s so many times where there’s one or two stragglers that… it’s like, Jeff is just like off on his own little tan. He’s just chewing away at some grass, and then all the sudden, like, “Oh, everybody’s gone! Oh, I guess I better go!”

And by that time, you’ve closed a little bit more distance and you might have an opportunity to actually pick up that straggler bird. And I think that’s why a lot of people like to shoot semiautomatics, [crosstalk 00:00:59:19].

Hank Shaw:

Get that third shot.

Travis Warren:

Because you always have that third shot in there. I mean, we can talk about guns all day. But yeah, there’s always going to, there always seems to be this little straggler bird or it was somewhere, especially if you’ve broken that covey up once. They’re going to land and they’re going to try and covey up by chucking, by calling to each other. And if you give him a little bit of time, they start coming together, but they’re not going to be tight like they were the first time. They’re going to be a little bit interspersed.

So, you know, if one’s behind a rock and it doesn’t see the rest of them fly, then you still have that one. That’s an opportunity. So, yeah, it’s a fun bird. It’s a really, really just, it’s a challenge. When you start learning their little quirks and the way that they do things. And that kind of is fun, because it sort of opens or uncovers a little bit more of that mystery. You know, it’s not as much of a mystery as it used to be.

Hank Shaw:

I’m going to throw gasoline on a fire here. Are there some dogs better than others for chukar hunting? So, full disclosure, I do not hunt with a dog, but I know that I know that there are dog fights and [inaudible 01:00:29] I just, when we were recording this, I don’t know if you guys out there follow Instagram, but there is an account which sadly is closing called the Hip Uplander.

Travis Warren:

Oh really?

Hank Shaw:

Yeah. And whoever does it just posted that they’re going to at least take a hiatus for awhile.

Travis Warren:

Sad times.

Hank Shaw:

No doubt because of dog fights, but it’s was one of my favorite. It just pokes fun at all of us in the upland world. And it’s really good inside jokes, but…

Travis Warren:

You can’t take yourself too seriously.

Hank Shaw:

Apparently [crosstalk 01:01:02] some people were.

Travis Warren:

You’re right. Well, maybe, sure. And I’ve seen that. I’ll tell you, man, I’ve gotten a hate mail from the podcast and I’m like, I do this for fun. I do it because I love it, and because I just want to give everybody something to listen to, and people get mad about stuff. And you just like, well, you know, it’s not [crosstalk 01:01:20].

Hank Shaw:

Settle down, Francis!

Travis Warren:

That’s one or two people. I have to explain them like, hey, I do this for fun. It’s a passion project. And you know, I’m sorry that you were, you know, that I didn’t say something correctly. It’s just, hey man. You know, it doesn’t pay my bills. So…

Hank Shaw:

Let’s talk about dogs.

Travis Warren:

Yeah, let’s talk about dogs.

Hank Shaw:

What do you run? Let’s talk a little bit less about breed and more about characteristics. What makes a good chukar hunting dog? From the only thing I know, is that it’s got to be pretty wide range.

Travis Warren:

Well, that’s a pretty fair way of looking at it cause I’ve had it behind a ton of different dogs and they’re all great. I’m definitely a Baskin-Robbins kind of guy. I like all the flavors. So I personally have a German Shorthaired Pointer and German Wirehaired Pointer. And one of the things that I will tell you, from seeing different bird dogs run and seeing my dogs run, and having hunted without dogs chukar, and now hunting with chukar, there’s really three things, I think, that are the most important. And how you, how you quantify this is I think it’s up to the handler and up to the owner, but you need to have a dog that has a lot of stamina, and that’s because you’re going all day.

You know, there’s this idea of, “I’ll go and do a loop for an hour and come back and take a rest.” I mean, when you go chukar hunting, you’re gone for the day for the most part. Anything you need, everything you got, it’s with you. And so that includes anything you for your dog. So your dog has got to be able to keep up, and you want your dog to range. Now, that is very, very specific to the individual. Some people like dogs that range up to 600 yards, and that’s fantastic. And I’m not a dog trainer by any stretch of the imagination, but as long as your dog will handle the birds, however far you want your dog to go is completely up to you. I mean, if your dog is going out 600 yards and just busting every single covey in sight, probably not worth having a 600 yard dog, you probably want to rein them in a little bit.

But my dogs, for the most part, are a 100 to 300 yard dog. And I think that that is perfect, because they’re covering distances, they’re covering terrain, they’re hitting objectives. Now you don’t want a 100 or 300 yard dog that just runs around in circles all day. You want a dog that understands, and that’s through experience, where birds are generally found. And we didn’t really talk about it, but it was a thought that popped into my head. When you’re working your dogs, you need to try and give them at least the best shot possible, and that’s to get them working into the wind. Sometimes it’s very dead wind out here in the Great Basin, but sometimes it’s ripping pretty good. So you want to try and work your dog into the wind, and that gives him the best opportunity.

So you need a dog with good stamina. You need a dog that’s savvy. And when I say that, I think that kind of boils down to experience too, because you’ll see it, and I’ve started to see it in my puppy. At the beginning of the year, she just ran around like an idiot. As the year progressed, I started to see her know objectives, know, you know, “I need to go up here and check these rocks out” and “I need to go up here in this rimrock”, “I’m going to go down here in this draw”. And she’s really trying to find the wind, and she’s really trying to work that wind. And then it’s a matter of those really savvy bird dogs, they know how to hit scents, stop on that scent cone, and then really hold those birds and not pressure them, because those birds, you could sometimes see them. I’ve actually seen them when my dog’s on point, in the tall cheatgrass. I could see one. And I’m like, okay, there they are.

Hank Shaw:

That’s where you want a .22.

Travis Warren:

It might be easier. Well, that’s for the ground and pound, and that’s the controversy behind that. But that’s a different topic, but…

Hank Shaw:

I am an avowed skillet shooter, man, especially when it’s a bird that’s as hard to get as a chukar.

Travis Warren:

Well, it’s called pre-flight, buddy. It’s called pre-flight.

Hank Shaw:

Pre flight!

Travis Warren:

Shoot them pre-flight.

Hank Shaw:

That’s like when you’re fly fishing, it’s a strike indicator, and when you’re fishing for something to eat, it’s a bobber.

Travis Warren:

So however you need to sell it to yourself to sleep at night. But yeah… [crosstalk 01:05:31].

Hank Shaw:

Pre-flight!

Travis Warren:

I have no shame either. But, really, you need that dog that’s not going to pressure those birds and bump those birds. So they need to understand that stopping on point and holding those birds and trying to do it in a way… And it’s hard for me to describe because I’m not a trainer and I’m not a bird dog guy in that regard, I just know what I see from my dogs. But what I’ve seen in all the other breeds is that these dogs are just savvy and they know how to hold these birds. And they just need to have tough feet. That’s another part of that stamina aspect, is that this country, this rimrock, the shale, it’s really tough on those feet. So having a dog with tough feet and conditioned feet is really important as well.

Hank Shaw:

Do you give them the little boots?

Travis Warren:

I do carry a boot. I have bought boots before and they last about all of two seconds.

Hank Shaw:

Oh, wow.

Travis Warren:

And then they’re just donated. I call it desert treasure. Some other hapless hunter is going to walk across it and go, “oh, there’s a dog boot. I’ll take that.” And for the life of me, I try and find them and I never can, because they’re like 50 bucks. You know, I don’t want to lose one, but, yeah…

Hank Shaw:

Oh, that’s what happens. They just fall off. They don’t break.

Travis Warren:

No, no, no, no. They just fall off. I know a lot of people have different tactics to keep boots on. But for me, living where I do, it’s a lot easier for me to condition my dogs’ feet in the country that they’re going to hunt. So I have very few dog feet issues other than Hazel, my older dog. She sustained a pretty good injury early in the season, so I couldn’t exercise her. She really was on just bed rest for about five weeks, which really softened her feet up. So when she got back in the field, it was a matter of, yeah, I’d hunt her for a day and she would just be totally smoked. I couldn’t hunt her at all for the rest of the weekend, and she would just be done for a week. But my puppy, no foot issues all year long, because I just condition them on this stuff.

Hank Shaw:

Hmm. So gear’s probably pretty… You know, the one thing that’s different for a chukar hunt than, say, much of my other upland hunting is mostly, I just wear that Filson harness vest, the real light one.

Travis Warren:

Yeah, the tennis strap vest?

Hank Shaw:

Yeah, yeah. But the difference is when, when I’m chukar hunting, I might want something a little bit more, with more pockets, just because you want to stick more turkey or whatever food. And then, since I don’t have a dog, I’m usually carrying water for me and the other dogs. Because the guy who’s got the dog usually is carrying as much water as you can, because we may be gone for four hours or chasing chupacabras at night because we got lost.

Travis Warren:

Absolutely. It’s dangerous.

Hank Shaw:

So there’s a bit more of a… I’ve never really worn chaps when chukar hunting. I’ve just worn really good boots. I really like lightweight wool socks. You know, I wear smart wool stuff, but any good wool sock is better than cotton. Layers, I guess. But it’s just, I think basically you just need to be mobile, because you’re going to be walking, walking, walking. And as far as a gun, like I shoot a Franchi, I should Franchi Veloce and it’s a 20 gauge as well, and the chokes are fused into it as improved and modified. So I’m going to go with that no matter what, because I can no longer take my chokes out.

Travis Warren:

You know? Yes. Gear is probably the most requested topic on the podcast. And I would say because when you start getting into chukar hunting… And this is really not an exaggeration or a boast. It really is similar to your backcountry guys and gals that are hunting big game. It’s all about having the good gear and having the right gear because A, it keeps you safer and B, it prolongs your ability to stay out there and hunt comfortably and confidently, that at least you know you’re going to be safe.

I love gear as much as the next person, so I love switching stuff out. But I shoot anything from, you know, if we just want to start at guns, I shoot a Franchi Instinct and a two barrel and I love it. I also have a Beretta A400 Xplor that I just bought, both in 12 gauge. I know a lot of people who hunt 20 gauge and up to 16 gauge. Some guys are crazy and they hunt 410. I got a buddy who hunted two barrel 410 this year for the last portion, and that dude’s just one of my idols when it comes to chukar hunting. So, 12 gauge is probably your most common caliber or common gauge size that you probably see people out there. I would say that you could probably get away with a lot of cheaper stuff on top, but really the boots are the most important, because just like your dog’s feet, and the terrain will tear your dog’s feet up, having really good boots makes a huge difference in terms of your foot fatigue, your ability to sidehill.

So you want a stiffish boot, something that can help you sidehill comfortably. So something preferably, for me, with a full rand around it, so it helps keep the side of that boot stable when you’re sidehilling. Something that’s generally got some sort of a semi-rigid midsole so that, when you step on the rocks, your foot’s not folding over it, and that really helps a lot with having a good purchase in the rocks when you’re climbing up. And then I like leather boots. Some people like synthetic boots. It really doesn’t matter. It’s just your personal preference, but I wear an eight and a half inch tall boot. And I wear pretty much a full-on mountaineering style boot, not like your Everest guys and gals, but, you know, [crosstalk 01:11:28] I wear a full-on boot.

Hank Shaw:

I wear an Asolo boot, which is pretty similar to what you’re talking about.

Travis Warren:

Yeah. So a really good boot. If you’re going to invest money into any piece of equipment going chukar hunting… That’s the great thing about chukar hunting, is that all you need is a shotgun and a license. If you got tennis shoes, conceivably you can go do it. If you have a JanSport backpack and a pair of tennis shoes and a jacket, you can go out and do it. You don’t need anything other than a license and a shotgun and some shells. That’s the greatest thing about chukar [crosstalk 00:23:58]…

Hank Shaw:

Merino wool underwear, highly recommended.

Travis Warren:

I’m saying conceivably, in terms of just starting, you don’t really need anything. But when you start really getting into the wants, the things that you should start investing your money into is first of all, in my opinion, is a good pair of boots. Because you can kill chukar with it with a Remington 870 pump for 300 bucks. You don’t need the fancy stuff. And everything was progressional for me as well and for most people. Most guys still hunt with hand me down guns that they got from their dads. So that’s where I think you should invest your money. And then really, to be honest with you, I laugh and call myself a Costco hunter all day and all night. Because I find the best hunting gear in Costco. And it’s an amalgam of anything you can find from Columbia to UNIONBAY tech pants, to Eddie Bauer stuff to Under Armour.

So I mean, you get into this synthetic fibers. So having a synthetic pants, something that dries quickly is really important because rain showers can be something that really can, not only ruin your hunt, but can be dangerous as well. Because if you become hypothermic, it’s definitely not a situation that is very fun. And I have been there myself, chukar hunting. It’s pretty scary. So I went from jeans after that hunt to a technical pant, which are $20 at Costco. They’re UNIONBAY tech pants. Or as I’ve talked about many, many times before, the Wrangler outdoor pants at Walmart are 20 bucks, as well, are fantastic pants. If you’re on a budget and you want something better than a pair of jeans, that is not going to break your budget. And those will easily last one to two seasons.

Hank Shaw:

Oh yeah. My stuff has everything from high end Filson to Dickies.

Travis Warren:

Yeah. I mean, you do learn as you do it, what you like the most. I run so hot. And so I sweat probably more than the average person, at least I feel I do. So I wear a merino, 150 weight merino base layer. And it’s basically a tee shirt. And I always wear a tee shirt underneath because at some point I’m going to get hot and I want to take it off. And then I wear a lighter, synthetic, usually it’s like a quarter zip that goes over the top. And then I always carry a rain shell in my backpack. That was one of the things I did not have when I got hypothermic that time hunting. And I was way far out of town, it was bad. And we lost the truck and it was an absolute nightmare. And it was really scary cause it starts snowing. We were disoriented. We got hypothermic and it was not something I want to recreate anytime soon.

So after that, it doesn’t matter if it’s a $5 emergency poncho from Walmart or whatever, get something in there that will protect you from the rain and keep it in your bag. And so always have a rain shell of some degree. And then really whatever you prefer. I mean, there’s times when it’s cold, I’ll carry a puffy jacket as well, one that scrunches down pretty tight. But everything is layerable and everything is synthetic or wool. I don’t wear any cotton. I don’t wear jeans anymore. And that’s for me. As much as I do this. And as much as I’ve been out there and the sketch situations that I’ve found myself in over the years. I know what I like now, and I know what I performed the best in.

And so as you get into chukar hunting more, that’s when you start kind of figuring out what you like. In terms of bags, I started off with a regular old vest that I bought for like 20 bucks at Cabela’s and a backpack and a Camelback backpack. And that’s what I started off. And then I moved into [Tenzing BV 01:16:02] series bag, which I ran for a number of years and it was a great bag. And then this year I run an Orvis pro upland vest, just because I got a great deal on it. And it’s a good vets.

But I’ve kind of moved away from bladders, both in chukar hunting and a back country hunting because I think they do have a propensity they can’t fail. And then you’re kind of screwed if you’ve lost all your water. And I’ve had issues with my water hose freezing. And I know that there’s remedies to that, but I’d rather not just deal with it. So now I just carry three liters of water, two SmartWater bottles, and I [inaudible 01:16:41] pack Scott, it’s water bottle compatible. So I’ve got places to put my water bottles. Because I also carry a Sawyer Mini filter with me, that screws directly onto the top of a SmartWater bottle. So I’ve got three liters of water and then I’ve got a water filter I carry with me.

And like I said, with all that stuff that I’m carrying first aid/possibles kit. I carry a full T handled tourniquet for any traumatic bleeding. I carry things like that. I carry gloves, beanie, doesn’t matter the time of year, I always carry gloves, beanie, neck gaiter, baseball cap. And then all the other bells and whistle and jewelry like my GPS unit and all that stuff that I have.

Hank Shaw:

Man, you travel heavy.

Travis Warren:

It’s really not that heavy.

Hank Shaw:

I always wear a pair pants and a blaze orange vest and a pocket full of shells.

Travis Warren:

Yeah. It’s not really that heavy. It sounds like a lot of stuff, but when it really breaks it down, my stuff is very refined. And I’ve done it over… It’s been a progression, but all my stuff is very refined. It’s literally in a little … My possibles kit is all in a six by six little pouch that fits right into the back sleeve of my Pro Upland vest. And then all that stuff really just goes inside that and zips off. I carry nothing, apart from my rain jacket, layers, the bottom of my bird bag, the bird bag portion.

All my food goes in the little front zipper. And it’s a little velcro portion, all my food goes in there. So I love eating and this is one of the reasons I love having kids, but I love eating these little Smucker’s peanut butter and jelly uncrustables. I put two of those in my bag and then all the other goodies and some of my food goes in there. And then I’ve got my shells in my left and I carry my cell phone and my gloves and my beanie and my gaiter in my right side of my pouch. So yeah, it’s actually really not that heavy. Probably-

Hank Shaw:

Hmm. Probably shells wise, if I’m shooting steel, I’m usually shooting steel sevens. And if I’m shooting lead, I’m shooting lead sixes.

Travis Warren:

Yeah. So we don’t have to by law, use steel in Nevada. So I shoot a two and three quarter inch sixes. Sometimes I’ll dabble in the fives, just depends on what the birds are doing. But for the most part, I [inaudible 01:19:11] the Golden Pheasant, Fiocchi Golden Pheasant, two and three quarters in six shot. Those are at least what I’ve seen, they’re great for birds. They seem to have… They hold their pattern pretty well. Although I haven’t actually officially patterned them. They’ve seemed to have not as many gaps at the gun that I was shooting in. And I do go and hunt chukar in California, because I live so close to the border. I hold a California license as well. I do like to go over and hunt mountain quail and chukar in California. So when I go there, if I’m hunting chukar, I probably will scale it down a little bit to maybe a four or five on that steel shot, but I don’t-

Hank Shaw:

I have never had a problem putting them on the ground with Winchester steel sevens.

Travis Warren:

Some people way better shots than me.

Hank Shaw:

I’m going for the spray and pray method.

Travis Warren:

That’s what I’ve used and that’s what I use. And then obviously, steel sevens or Bismuth for mountain quail.

Hank Shaw:

So let’s talk about finally, after how we’ve been going, we’re going a long time and I’m okay with that. Let’s talk about once you get some birds in the [inaudible 01:20:32]. How do you like to cook your chukars?

Travis Warren:

Obviously I’m talking to the guru, so I don’t want to be shamed too much. But for me, it’s all about introducing wild game to my family. And that’s been one of the greatest things is that for the most part, we don’t buy store bought red meat. And we do supplement our white meat with chicken. But when I cook chukar, what I usually do is I make a few dishes. I will make enchiladas, I will make tacos. I will make a meat sauce, spaghetti meat sauce. And I will make chili. And my family all loves it. They will eat the crap out of it. And that for me is probably one of the most rewarding things is that they know exactly what they’re eating. I’m not trying to fool them. [inaudible 01:21:28] and they know exactly what it is.

My kids helped me clean these birds. So they’re very familiar with the process of preparing your own food and they love it. And it’s something that’s hilarious when they bring their friends over and their friends have no idea what the heck a chukar is. And then they go, “Oh my gosh, this is great.” But those are the dishes we do. And generally what I’ll-

Hank Shaw:

Sounds like you’re a skinner.

Travis Warren:

I am a Skinner. Yeah, I don’t pluck. And like I said, talking to the guru. But for me, I skin them all and I throw the legs and I throw the breast in a crockpot. and I boil it down so I can tear, I can get every single piece of meat off those bones. I don’t want to waste the meat. So I pull all that meat off the bones. And then it’s a matter of whether or not I keep it shredded or a dice it or whatever the case is. But that’s what I do and that’s how I get the most out of each bird is by doing it that way.

There’s been times when I take the breast meat and I’ll make chicken nuggets or whatever out of it. But that’s not… For me when I take the breast meat off. I just feel like I could get so much more if I just stick it in the crockpot and just pull every single piece off. So that’s what I generally do with all the meat that I end up getting for chukar is I cook them that way because my family eats it. And it’s just part of our lifestyle.

Hank Shaw:

So I will tell you what I tell everybody who’s a skinner, consider plucking your well shot birds. The ones that are not blown to pieces, which is most… I mean, it’s a rare day that I absolutely massacre a chukar. And the trick is to keep them [inaudible 01:23:09] in the feathers for three days in the fridge or in some similarly cold environment. Because at that point they relax enough where plucking them is not a problem. It was funny, I actually did a cooking demo and plucking demo in Nevada actually, in conjunction with NDOW. And somebody brought me chukars that had been killed the night before and it was the next morning. I’m like, “Oh great.” Which is the singular worst time to try and pluck any Upland bird because it’s in full rigor, the feather stick like iron.

And I mean, I can do it because I’m something of a plucking Jedi. But it was not easy. And it was a good object lesson to show people, like this is how hard it is when you do it at the wrong time. And conversely, I went chukar hunting in Idaho once and we got a couple, two, three birds. But I was on the road. So I kept them in a cooler, in the back of the truck for like five days. I mean, they were whole, cold, but there were fully whole, those things plucked like a dream. They almost plucked like a dove they were so easy. And the reason you go for that is because they’re effectively a micro chicken. If you’ve never eaten a chukar and you’re out there listening and wondering, it’s a micro chicken.

It’s not that dissimilar from a Cornish game hen. It’ll be denser. It will be slightly less fatty. The sinews in the drumsticks will be firmer, but not unmanageable like a wild turkey. But it’s a white meat bird. It’s a gallinaceous, chicken cousin, even the dark meat isn’t terribly dark. They’re burst birds. They’re not long distance flyers. And any long distance flyer gets red meat. So the other thing about all chicken relatives is the skin is amazing. It just really is amazing. Even if you don’t keep it on the bird, one of the singular greatest things that you can possibly eat is crispy fried chicken like bird skin. And served in any way you like, even from right out of the frying pan to in a tortilla or on rice. It’s just so amazingly good that I just can’t… To me it’s by far my favorite part of eating any white meat bird is the skin.

And so I go through hell and high water to get to it, especially because I’ve never shot a limit of chukars, ever. And I’ve never shot more than four in a day. So every bird is a trophy. And so I’m going to treat it as such. And also I don’t really live in chukar country. So for me, chukars not what I do on a Tuesday. I mean, chukar would be like, it would be… This is why we didn’t get together this year is because it takes some effort for me to get into chukar country.

But the long and short of cooking chukars is they’re bigger than a quail, smaller than a pheasant. If they were picked and plucked, gutted, and ready to rock like a small chicken, you could get away with one per person if you had other things on the plate. Two per person is a bit much. So it’s almost like you want three birds for two people. But they are such a special bird that it’s one of those things where, if you meet a chukar hunter and a chukar hunter gives you two birds to eat on a sitting, that chukar hunter really likes you.

Travis Warren:

Like anybody who gives you any game meat must really like you to do that. Because the sweat equity that went into gathering that and processing it and getting it back to a point where they could actually gift it to you. That’s a lot of work.

Hank Shaw:

Especially uplands. The only time I see people trying to offload Upland, are people who are hunting [inaudible 01:27:12] pheasants. They shot like nine pheasants or something like that.

Travis Warren:

Well, maybe one of year I’ll get a pheasant. I’ve been trying to for two years and still-

Hank Shaw:

Go to Klamath.

Travis Warren:

No, I’m sure it’ll happen next year. I just like to joke about it. Because it’s hilarious because I hunt a bird which most people have on a bucket list. I hunt it at least twice a week, if not more during the season. And I laugh because I do this hunt, which is bucket list hunts for people. And people are shooting the heck out of pheasants. And the concept for them is like, “What? you can’t shoot a pheasant.” Well, I’ve only tried twice in two years. So it’s not exactly something that I’m going out on a regular basis to do. But I still think it’s hilarious.

Hank Shaw:

It is. I would direct you though to next season to go to the Klamath wildlife area on the border of Oregon and Nevada. That’s probably the best area, closest to you that has good wild pheasants.

Travis Warren:

Well, you’re probably a lot like me where your year gets swallowed up pretty quickly through all the obligations that you have. And so I have to get better about putting stuff on calendars. Because the spontaneity sometimes is very, very difficult once the season’s already going. So I got to get it and say, “Bam, I’m going and doing this for X number of days.” And then I got to front load the boss, if I don’t front load the boss and she doesn’t know what’s going on, it’s hard to kind of squeeze those multi-day trips in just on the spur of the moment. She gets it. But yeah, you got to make sure the boss is all right with it.

Hank Shaw:

Very true. Very true. So before I let you go, you should let everybody out there know how to find you via your website and podcast and social media and all that kind of jazz, so that if people want to follow you more online and to listen to the upchukar podcast, how would they do that?

Travis Warren:

Well, I’m really easy to find. And especially because upchukar is such a unique word. So if you’re on Instagram, you can find me, it’s simply at Upchukar. If you’re on Facebook, I’m at UpchukarNV. And the podcast, which is Upchukar podcast is available on most, every single major platform. But most times people will listen to it through iTunes. So you can find me on iTunes and then you can always visit the blog/website at upchukar.com. That’s going to post all of the recent episodes as well as other content. That’s my guilty place, where I put all my writings that maybe nobody wants to read anyways. But it’s my spot. And I can just put them there. So I do some blogs in there, some [inaudible 01:29:58] and I wouldn’t call it photography, some of the photographs I take throughout the year. And you can actually see the Himalayan snowcock hunt we did in partnership with Project Upland two years ago-

Hank Shaw:

That’s a great film.

Travis Warren:

It was a lot of fun. I know that’s not the topic of this podcast, but a lot of fun.

Hank Shaw:

Yeah. I think I actually linked to that video for the snowcock podcast that we did some months ago. So all of this stuff is going to be in the show notes too by the way, for those of you listening. And so if you forgot to write it down just this second, I will have it in writing on the podcast show notes. So anyway Travis, I’m absolutely going to use that calendar skill that we just mentioned to put some dates on for us to meet in Nevada or even in Eastern California at some point next season to chase the hateful gray bird.

Travis Warren:

That’d be great. Yeah, that would be fun. I just want to say thank you. Like I said, this is only the second time in two years, I’ve been on somebody else’s podcast. Normally I’m the guy reaching out. So it’s actually really fun. It’s really been fun to be the guest. And I just thank you for that opportunity. You could have chosen anybody and I appreciate you choosing me.

Hank Shaw:

I want to thank everybody for listening to the Hunt, Gather [inaudible 01:31:19] podcast. This has been a great episode, and I hope you stick with me for the rest of season two. You can find me online at hunt, gather, cook on Instagram, as well as my website, which is hunter, angler, gardener, cook. That would be huntergathercook.com. And if you go there, you will find our podcast page with all of the other episodes of this season and the previous season of the podcast.

And I have a request for you. One of the reasons I’ve kept sponsorship of this podcast to a minimum is to try to stay as independent as possible. It’s incredibly important for me to be an honest broker, to only support things that I actually really use and that will be valuable to you as a listener. To keep that independence, I do need to keep the lights on and the mortgage paid. So on the podcast page of hunter, angler, gardener cook, you will see a button to support this podcast. If you do at certain levels, you will get anything from a hunter, angler, gardener, cook bumper sticker to signed books. At certain levels of support I am offering signed copies of Buck, Buck, Moose, my venison cookbook or Pheasant, Quail, Cottontail, which is the book that accompanies this podcast because it is dedicated to all things Upland and small game.

If you donate at a higher level, you’ll get both books and I will sign them both as well. I really appreciate your support, without you guys all of this is meaningless. And I really, really appreciate your reviews, your ratings, your comments, your feedback, all of that makes what I do much, much more valuable. Because I learn from you as much as you learn from it. So stay tuned until next time. I’m Hank Shaw. And until then, keep it wild.