Hunt Gather Talk Podcast: All About Squirrels

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Squirrel podcast cover art.
Photo illustration by Hank Shaw

I’m back!

After a long hiatus, I am bringing back the Hunt Gather Talk podcast for a Season Two. This season will focus entirely on upland game, not only upland birds but also small game. Think of this as the podcast behind my latest cookbook, Pheasant, Quail, Cottontail, which covers all things upland.

I am happy to be working with two title sponsors, Hunt to Eat and Filson. These will be the only two commercial sponsors of the show, a move I’ve made to keep things as uncluttered as possible. I happen to already wear a lot of both Filson and Hunt to Eat gear anyway, so it’s a natural fit.

Every episode of Season Two will dig deep into the life, habits, hunting, lore, myth and of course prepping and cooking of a particular animal. Expect episodes on pheasants, rabbits, every species of quail, every species of grouse, wild turkeys, rails, woodcock, pigeons and doves, chukars and huns — and yes, tree ninjas. In fact, that’s where we’ll start.

In this episode I talk with Arizona Game & Fish biologist Johnathan O’Dell all about squirrels.

Johnathan is the first person ever recorded to have hunted, shot and eaten every species of tree squirrel it’s legal to hunt in the United States. Field & Stream wrote him up for the achievement, even. Johnathan helped me follow him in the Great American Squirrel Slam, which I finished out in December 2018.

If you want to see what it looked like when I finished the Grand Squirrel Slam, here’s the video.

In this episode, we go over all kinds of squirrel-related things, from biology to the rifle vs. shotgun debate, how to hunt the various species, cooking squirrels, the myth of barking squirrels, as well as gear you might want to have while chasing Mr. Bushytail.

For more information on these topics, here are some helpful links:

A Request

I am bringing back Hunt Gather Talk with the hopes that your generosity can help keep it going season after season. My two sponsors help things a lot, but you are the third leg of the stool. Think of this like public radio, only with hunting and fishing and wild food and stuff. No, Hunt Gather Talk won’t be a “pay-to-play” podcast, so you don’t necessarily have to chip in. But I am asking you to consider it. Every little bit helps to pay for editing, servers, and, frankly to keep the lights on here. Thanks in advance for whatever you can contribute!

Subscribe

You can find an archive of all my episodes here, and you can subscribe to the podcast here via RSS.

Subscribe via iTunes and Stitcher here.

Transcript

As a service to those with hearing issues, or for anyone who would rather read our conversation than hear it, here is the transcript of the show. Enjoy!

Hank Shaw:

Hey everybody. This is Hank Shaw from Hunter Angler Gardener Cook. I am super stoked to welcome you guys to Season 2 of the Hunt Gather Talk podcast. It has been a long time coming. I’m very grateful for everybody who listened to Season 1, those first 18 episodes.

And as some of you may or may not know, I did end the podcast for a time because, well, frankly, it didn’t help keep the lights on. So this season, I’m very happy to announce that two great companies are sponsoring the Hunt Gather Talk podcast this season, Filson and Hunt to Eat.

It’s a great fit because I end up wearing both their companies’ gear all the time anyway, and it’s some of the best stuff around that will help you on your upland hunts. I’m limiting it to just these two advertisers, because I want them to serve as the two legs of the stool that will help the Hunt Gather Talk podcast stand upright.

You are the third, and I will talk a little bit more about that later. But for now, let me tell you a little bit about how we’re going to go here in Season 2. We’re going to focus Season 2 all on upland birds. Upland birds and upland game.

So we’re going to deal with squirrels in this episode, and then every episode beyond that is going to deal with a very specific upland game animal, from pheasants, to quail, to cottontails, to squirrels, to rails, to woodcock. Every different kind of grouse. Every different kind of quail.

And you name it, we’re going to cover it in detail. So it’s going to be an absolute upland game fest here one the Hunt Gather Talk podcast. My goal here for Season 2 is for you to enjoy a total geek-out session on whatever that game animal is, even if you don’t hunt it, because after listing to an hour or even more than an hour of lore, and biology, and habit, and hunting tips, and gear, and of course, prep and cook, because I am a hunter angler gardener cook, you’ll be stoked to go out there and chase these animals yourselves, and bring some home for the table.

One thing we’re doing different here on Season 2, is, I am asking you to consider giving a contribution to the Hunt Gather Talk podcast. That helps pay for editing. It helps keep the lights on, and helps make this podcast a healthy and vibrant part of your outdoor life.

You can contribute to the podcast via the link here on Hunt Gather Talk, and there are all kinds of levels, everything from a $6 donation, which will get you a bumper sticker and my eternal thanks, to $35, which will get you a copy of either Pheasant, Quail, Cottontail, which is the book up which this podcast is based, or my venison cookbook, Buck, Buck, Moose.

And at the $75 level, you will get both of those books, and what’s more, they will be signed by me, and I will send them to your doorstep. And finally, there’s an open-ended donations. So if you want to contribute a dollar, if you want to contribute $100 or whatever, that’s okay too.

And keep in mind, this is basically like public radio. I am asking you to please consider contributing, but I’m not going to require it. This is not going to be a paywall podcast. You will be able to listen to this on Stitcher and iTunes and Google Play, and however you want to listen to your podcast

All I’m asking is for you to think about it. If you like it and you want to listen to a few episodes, and then consider contributing, that is absolutely okay too. This first episode is going to feature a good friend of mine, a guy named Johnathan O’Dell.

He is a wild game biologist for Arizona Game and Fish. He is a absolute squirrel geek. He may in fact be the first person to have ever hunted, shot and eaten all eight squirrel species in North America. Now, we’re talking tree squirrels here. We’re not talking about flying squirrels or ground squirrels, because almost nobody hunts and eats those.

Well, I was fortunate enough to have Johnathan as my guide to finish my own squirrel slam, which I did last year. And I got to tell you, it was an absolute blast. Many of the more esoteric squirrels to hunt in North America only live in Arizona or New Mexico, or the Desert Southwest, which is a thing that not everybody knows.

So we’re going to talk a bit about Western squirrels more than the East Coast old standbys of fox and the gray squirrels. So without further ado, here’s me and Johnathan chewing the fat about Mr. Bushy Tail. Welcome to the Hunt Gather Talk podcast, Johnathan. I am so glad to have you on in the initial episode of Season 2.

As I mentioned before, the Season 2 episode is all about upland game, and not just upland birds. So we are possibly the two most squirrel hunt-ness people that we know, in terms of the length and breadth and crazy stuff that we will do for squirrels.

Johnathan O’Dell:

Thank you for having me on the podcast. It’s awesome to be on. Yeah, I would say, for sure, we are probably the two biggest Western squirrel hunters, those from the West. There’s probably a lot of guys in the Southeast who do it a lot more than we do.

Hank Shaw:

That’s true. I mean, I think, in terms of variety of species, as opposed to volume of squirrels. I’ve seen some guys on the Hunt Gather Cook forum with, “Hey, me and friends all shot 10 squirrels today. And we’re going to shoot 10 more tomorrow and 10 more the next day.” I’m like, “That’s a lot of squirrels.”

Johnathan O’Dell:

Western hunters seem to be adventurous. We talked about collectors. I think maybe we might be a little bit more in the collector category. It’s like Pokémon. You got to catch them all. Part of that probably has to do with the diversity, I would imagine, that we get to experience over what folks in the East part of the country get to experience.

Hank Shaw:

It’s true. You’re born and raised in the West, so first Montana and then Arizona for most of your life. So how did you get bit by the squirrel bug? I never actually think I’ve asked you that.

Johnathan O’Dell:

Well, I grew up in a subsistence hunting family. We bought all the tags that were available to us. I grew up in Montana. We used to go to the local IGA and buy our tags. Mostly, it’s because we were trying to feed them.

The rule in our family was, is, if a group of whatever animals you were hunting came in, you shoot the biggest one. Otherwise, if it was just one, you just shot the first one, because we were looking to feed … There was 13 of us in total, between my family, my uncles and their families and my grandparents.

But I just remember as a kid, we had red squirrels in Montana, at least in Western Montana where I was.

Hank Shaw:

The Douglas squirrels?

Johnathan O’Dell:

No, no, no. Hudsonicus, the red squirrels. Fairy diddles or whatever.

Hank Shaw:

So the same red squirrels that I would see in say, Minnesota or Ohio or…

Johnathan O’Dell:

Or here in Arizona. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And high mountainous elevation there in the Rocky Mountains. I just remember, I was like, “Dad, can I shoot him?” He’s like, “There’s no way we’re wasting the ammo on … That won’t even feed the freaking cat.”

Hank Shaw:

It’s like three raviolis, by the way.

Johnathan O’Dell:

Yeah, yeah, pretty much. So I was always kind of curious. And I was like, “Oh, okay. I guess, as a family, as a culture, we just don’t hunt squirrels.” So fast, forward. I moved down to Arizona, did a stint in the Army. I came back to Arizona. And the draw system here is really weird, and kind of complicated for someone who’s new to it.

Hank Shaw:

For big game, right?

Johnathan O’Dell:

Yeah, for big game. So I was applying for deer hunting, just typical stuff. I had one other hunter in my wildlife classes with me. We would talk, and he said, “Oh, hey, did you get drawn for anything this year?”

And I said, “No, I suck, apparently. I don’t know. I don’t understand the draw, and I guess I’m not going out this year.” And he’s like, “Why don’t you go squirrel hunting?” And I’m like, “Squirrel hunting? Seriously? I don’t know what the hell I’m doing. I don’t even know where I’d go.”

And he said, “Well, here.” So we pulled out the regulations booklet, and he pointed to a spot on the map. And I was like, “Well, what do I shoot them with?” “Oh, you bring a shotgun, a .22, whatever.” I said, “Okay.”

So I went up there that weekend, and literally had the time of my life. Hunting felt good again, like when I was a kid. Just the excitement and all that stuff. And there was so much action. I mean, I’m sure I biffed it and blew it so many times that day, but I ended up getting a limit that first day, of Abert’s.

Of course, Abert’s are just the coolest looking squirrel you’ve ever seen. They don’t look like the red squirrels whatsoever.

Hank Shaw:

They are the squirrel with the funky ears.

Johnathan O’Dell:

Yeah, they’re the strangest looking squirrels, but they’re really cool. I mean, I had such a great day. And then I bring them back, and I’m cooking them up, and I’m eating them. I’m like, “This is what … ” Like I said, it felt familiar again, like when I first started hunting.

I mean, there wasn’t the concern over inches of antler and how big it … There was nothing … I was bragging because I got a limit of squirrels, and that was cool. There wasn’t a greater trophy in terms of what anyone else could present to me, than that.

So that picked up love affair with it. Of course, Arizona at the time while I was at college … Interestingly, there’s a book about Arizona. It’s called the Mammals of Arizona, written by Hoffmeister. It’s considered the bible of Arizona.

Now, it’s outdated now and a bunch of stuff. I think it was written in 1986. But in college, we were all looking for it, and it’s been out of print for a long time. So the copies are very expensive. They sell for over $1000 in Europe, because these Europeans want to come to Arizona to do mammal work and research.

Well, I ended up trading two shotguns for the copy that I got. In it, it talks about the squirrels here in Arizona. I was fascinated at the fact that there’s four squirrels here. So that just let to my own curiosity about how many different kinds of squirrels there are, and where they come from, and all that.

But Arizona was just a fascinatingly unique place, because of a couple of them, watching three of them really that were super fascinating and all that. So it just led me down a path for a long time of just really getting into squirrel hunting, and squirrel knowledge, and the behind the scenes of everything.

Hank Shaw:

Tell me about the different squirrels in Arizona.

Johnathan O’Dell:

Arizona’s unique. I believe it’s the only state with four species. We’re talking about the tree squirrel, of course, the three classification of ground squirrel, tree squirrel and flying squirrel. Arizona has like 20 squirrels in total, but 4 tree squirrels, those that nest and pretty much live in trees.

So the red squirrel, the Tamiasciurus hudsonicus, which is the mostly widely distributed squirrel in North America. We have the Abert squirrel, which is the really unique one. It’s only found here in the Four Corner States of Arizona, New Mexico, Utah, and Colorado, the big tassel ears.

We have the Arizona gray squirrel, which is an interesting squirrel because it does look like an eastern gray squirrel. Pretty darn close, including the markings, except the fact that it’s actually a fox squirrel, based on the dentition. I can’t remember if it’s lacking or adding one. One of the additional molar is what you’re looking at there.

And then, of course, we have the Mexican fox squirrel, or Nayarit fox squirrel, or Chiricahua fox squirrel. Got several names, but that one only resides in Arizona as far as the United States, and then it goes down to the Sierra Madre.

Hank Shaw:

So Nayarit, huh? That’s actually a state in Mexico, next to Sinaloa. That’s a long way down there. So it looks like Arizona is just the very, very tippy top of where that squirrel ranges.

Johnathan O’Dell:

They are. Like I said, the Sierra Madre, and before the United States. So there’s this one pocket of squirrels in the Chiricahua Mountains in the Southeastern part of Arizona that the squirrels exist in.

At some point, probably habitat wise, they were connected at one point. But since then, they’ve been isolated out there on their own. It gives them a little unique color, as compared to regular fox squirrels that, I think, you see throughout most of the Southeast.

They live in Madrean forests, which is really a cool forest, if you ever get a chance to get into it. It’s a mix of Ponderosa, Chihuahuan and Apache pines, and also mixed with Emory oaks. You just know when you walk into it, that there’s something different about it.

So the color they take on for their belly, other than the black and salt and pepper, the belly color, and tail color and stuff is the color of the dead pine needles.

Hank Shaw:

I noticed.

Johnathan O’Dell:

Yeah, exact same color. Gives them a little camouflage.

Hank Shaw:

Yeah, it’s a really pretty squirrel. I mean, it’s probably the reddest, other than a straight-up Minnesota red squirrel, it’s a very, very cool squirrel. Our chance to hunt them was unusual in that, we did it in quite a bit of snow.

Johnathan O’Dell:

Yeah, we got snowed out on your gray squirrel, but still had the chance to try and get up in the mountains, without four-wheel drive and all kinds of stuff, which is … yeah, snow in Southeastern Arizona is very, very unusual. Doesn’t [crosstalk 00:13:58] all the time.

Hank Shaw:

Yeah, I mean, when was the last time there was snow in Bisbee? God, it was right before Christmas, wasn’t it?

Johnathan O’Dell:

Yeah.

Hank Shaw:

It was a December hunt. I know that. It just seemed like the weirdest thing in the world, that we were within walking distance of Mexico, and we were in a full-on whiteout.

Johnathan O’Dell:

Yeah, it was pretty intense. And the flecks that were dropping were huge and heavy and wet. It’s something really unusual for Southern Arizona.

Hank Shaw:

When’s the last time you hunted squirrels in snow that weren’t in high mountains?

Johnathan O’Dell:

I can’t say that I ever have, that weren’t in the very high mountains. We’re talking either Colorado Plateau or up about 9000 feet.

Hank Shaw:

I know, it’s pretty crazy. Actually, I want to use this as an opportunity to get into one of the first great squirrel debates, shotgun versus riffle.

Johnathan O’Dell:

Oh, yes. Well, maybe-

Hank Shaw:

I will start by saying, I always shoot shotguns at squirrels when there’s lots of foliage. And then when the foliage drops, I will switch to a .22, or occasionally a Hornet, but usually, a .22. Apparently, my very sensible decision is not looked at as sporting by certain members of the squirrel-hunting clans.

Johnathan O’Dell:

No, this is probably the biggest fight within the squirrel-hunting community, as to what to take them with. And it goes back a long, long way. It actually goes back, I think, probably to the idea of barking squirrels with the Kentucky squirrel rifle.

Hank Shaw:

So for people who don’t necessarily know exactly what barking squirrels is, what is it, in theory, supposed to be?

Johnathan O’Dell:

So in theory, what barking tree squirrels is, is that, you don’t shoot the squirrel. You actually shoot the bark right next to or underneath the squirrel. Of course, these were muzzle-loading rifles, flintlocks and things.

So it’s a much bigger ball than what you see in .22s, but it would make the bark of these hardwood trees explode, and kill the squirrel without damaging too much of the meat, which would, if you just hit them directly with a .36 cal, or .45 caliber ball, would destroy a lot of meat on that squirrel. So this was a way to keep that from happening.

Hank Shaw:

So is it real or isn’t it real?

Johnathan O’Dell:

No. Actually, I can tell you … So I collect 19th-century sporting literature. Prior to the Civil War, American sporting literature is a very, very sparse. It’s very rare. There’s just a handful. About three books, really, and maybe a little bit before.

But starting at the Civil War, and after there was this explosion in cultural literature about hunting within the United States and the continent, really. So there’s this story, and actually, the original author was John James Audubon, the famous birder.

It was about the first time he met Daniel Boone, the great pioneer of the Eastern United States. Boone actually was a very talented marksman. We know that, which is why he went to the Alamo. There was stories about him killing anything and everything, and showing off his abilities.

Well, Audubon met him, and he was showing off his skill about barking tree squirrels. They were sitting at a good distance. He had a Kentucky squirrel rifle, and would shoot just the bark instead of actually the squirrel, and it would kill them in most, I think, instances.

But that story became so popular and everything, I found that story in no fewer than at least six or seven books from that pre-Conservation Era, late 1800s era, so it was repeated often. I think that’s where that really started.

The myth became bigger than the man, and that’s the way everybody shot squirrels back then. As it turns out, most people who could afford a well-manufactured Dutch or English or German Kentucky rifle were poor. I mean, they couldn’t afford these things.

That was the common gun you had to have in your home. So they weren’t very ornate. They didn’t have silver inlays and everything that you might imagine. But at the same time, the price of lead was incredible.

So it was always hard for me to understand, why would they waste lead on squirrels, even though we know that they ate tons of squirrels? I started thinking about it, and I was like, “People must’ve been using some kind of shot or something else.”

So what’s funny is, the legend of Daniel Boone is, the very first thing Daniel Boone supposedly ever shot was a squirrel with a French trade gun, using dried peas as rounds.

Hank Shaw:

So instead of a ball, you could basically put in a musket, more or less, whatever you feel like shooting, right?

Johnathan O’Dell:

Absolutely. So he had a French trade at that time. He was eight. His parents were missionaries on a fort in Pennsylvania at the time. But that’s the legend of the first thing Daniel Boone ever killed. And mostly affluent people were the ones writing books during that timeframe.

So it wasn’t the commoner. You didn’t get a sense of what the commoner was doing. But I did find one article which supported my theory, because a guy talked about a black fox running across his field. They were actually waiting for some deer, and there was a jet black fox that came out.

So he shot it with, in his words, “Squirrelshot.” To have a word like that makes me think that, yeah, they were a shotgun or pellets, instead of a single ball.

Hank Shaw:

It makes sense. Or dried peas.

Johnathan O’Dell:

Yeah, dried peas. Yeah. So yeah, we can definitely say the Kentucky squirrel rifle, and the fact that it’s named the Kentucky squirrel rifle was a major development in firearms technology and marksmanship, as well as squirrel hunting itself.

Obviously, I mean, you’re hunting something that’s fast, and little, and in the trees, and stuff like that. So I don’t discount that at all, but I think the myth that common Americans were barking squirrels all across the country in the Southeast is just total BS.

Hank Shaw:

But that still leads to the very, very ancient tradition of only using a small-caliber rifle for squirrels. I mean, I’ll admit, when the leaves are off, that’s a great way to hunt, because it’s harder, and on the other side, you can make a longer shot, much longer shot with a .22 than you can with a shotgun.

And if you’re good, you head shoot them. If you’re not so good, you shoulder shoot them. It’s kind of how I learned how to do it. The first thing I ever shot when I started hunting was a gray squirrel in a Minnesota woodlot.

I did it with a Browning 22. I’ll never forget. It was a shot. It was pretty good shot, maybe about 50 yards. Maybe a little longer. I shot this squirrel out of a tree, and it fell with a thud into the snow. I mean, it was about 10 degrees and the snow everywhere.

Johnathan O’Dell:

Are you talking about the Chiricahuas or Minnesota?

Hank Shaw:

No, this is … Yeah, it could’ve been the same thing, except it was a lot colder in Minnesota. It’s a pretty formative experience, even though I was an adult when I had it. I think that getting used to rifle marksmanship in the squirrel woods is something that’s … I don’t know if it’s still held these days, but there’s an old tradition with it.

Johnathan O’Dell:

Yeah, no, I think that’s really important. I mean, that’s why Americans, even particularly our Military … I mean, this is a strong Military history about our marksmanship, and about the fact that we are squirrel hunters. It’s almost a uniquely American characteristic to sport hunt squirrels, or hunting squirrels in the way that we do.

Russia’s about the only other country where you see an area that is so dedicated to squirrel hunting, or in Russia’s case, a lot of times, trapping. What’s fascinating to me is that we learned our squirrel-hunting habits or thereof from the Native Americans.

I would bet that there was squirrel on the original Thanksgiving table at the original pilgrim set, instead of a turkey.

Hank Shaw:

I don’t know if it would be instead of a turkey. I think that was [crosstalk 00:22:36] by all accounts.

Johnathan O’Dell:

Sure, but even to this days, there’re still tribes who … the Inuits, as a matter of fact, in Alaska. The old people, or the senior folks in the tribe, actually prefer Alaskan ground squirrel to caribou as a taste wise.

We learned squirrel hunting from the Native Americans, and yes, probably some tribes only used it as only boys hunt squirrels. It’s a train-up thing. But for Americans, it became very, very popular as a great source of meat. Tasty, for sure.

Hank Shaw:

So they must’ve bow hunted them.

Johnathan O’Dell:

I believe they did, yeah.

Hank Shaw:

The original Judo Point.

Johnathan O’Dell:

Yeah, probably.

Hank Shaw:

Because that’s another one. If you think a lead ball’s expensive, I mean, these guys were chipping stone arrowheads. Anybody out there whose ever knapped an arrowhead knows that, Lord knows you don’t want to break that thing on a squirrel. So I wonder what they used. Maybe just woods.

Johnathan O’Dell:

Yeah, they have been the original blunt tips, just for the shock of it, instead of having to waste a chipped out arrowhead or something.

Hank Shaw:

Yeah. I mean, think about that. It takes well over an hour to do a decent arrowhead, and then, clink, oh, missed. Broke the arrowhead. Yeah, that’s not going to happen.

Johnathan O’Dell:

Yeah, that’s like throwing away those super expensive broadheads today, just firing them into a rock, just to see. And doing it several times.

Hank Shaw:

Every September, somebody will come on the Hunt Gather Cook forum, and be like, “Yep, got a couple of grouse. They cost me 50 bucks in arrows.” I’ll admit, I do a lot of squirrel hunting with shotguns, if only because I live in a place where there’s conifers everywhere. I’m just not that good a shot when they’re running in and out of pine trees.

Johnathan O’Dell:

Yeah, for sure. To me, I don’t begrudge anyone whatever method they want to use. I mean, I think there’re advantages to all of them, so I wouldn’t … The toughest part to me is, the hunting community tearing itself apart, of, “Oh, you’re not an archery hunter,” or, “My way’s the best way,” or, “the only way.”

I love shotgun hunting. Squirrels, a lot of times, in the pines too, because it requires me to more stealthy and quiet as I’m sneaking in, and I have to be at closer ranges. Other times, yeah, it’s, “Oh, I’m practicing my marksmanship skills and accuracy.”

Hank Shaw:

It’s a push-pull out here in the West, because you and I have been chasing Abert squirrels where, “Oh, yeah, there’s a squirrel. It’s so high, it’s out of gun range.” Our trees here in the West are considerably taller than anything other than maybe tulip trees in the East.

I mean, I can’t tell you how many times I’ve seen either a band-tailed pigeon or a squirrel, and he’s just way up there, laughing at you. And that’s when you wish you had your .22.

Johnathan O’Dell:

That goes to my other love affair of the old combination guns, the shotgun with the rimfire. To me, they were the absolute perfect gun, the old Savage 24s. Love those things. They’ve come back now with the Savage 42.

I know they’re more synthetic and ergonomic, and people like them, but I’m still a big fan of the old wood and blue metal and stuff like that.

Hank Shaw:

I should get one of those. I actually don’t have one. You’re right, because that’s a thing where you can just stalk around in the wood, and then, “Oh, there’s a squirrel.” If you got the jump on him, you can use the rifle. And if he starts running, you can switch to the shotgun.

Johnathan O’Dell:

That gun actually was built for the style of hunting that you and I enjoy, probably, the most, which is the mixed-bag stuff, because we don’t want to shoot birds with rimfires, even though that was very acceptable, I think, even 50, 60 years ago. [crosstalk 00:26:32].

Hank Shaw:

We can still do it in some states.

Johnathan O’Dell:

Yeah, for sure, but I think we’ve often thought of bird hunting as more sporting using a shotgun, and definitely probably a little more affective. But then, you might run across a standing rabbit or jackrabbit, or who knows, where just having the ability to switch between the two …

They were really, really cool guns for sure. I know that game laws across the country, and particularly turkey laws, are what was the death knell for that gun, in particular.

Hank Shaw:

Oh, I bet, yeah, because then, otherwise, you got some guy out there, just plinking turkeys with the .22 end of it.

Johnathan O’Dell:

Yeah, for sure.

Hank Shaw:

Did I ever tell you about my Purdey story?

Johnathan O’Dell:

Uh-uh (negative).

Hank Shaw:

So for anybody out there who doesn’t know, Purdey is an English company that makes, arguably, the finest shotguns in the world. I mean, they’re in everybody’s top three or four shotgun makers in the world.

And I don’t own one, because I’m not on that tax bracket. But my friend, Joe Kio, who, if you remember from Season 1, he and I talked exotic protein, because he’s a trapper. And he’s hunted and eaten all knows of things.

Well, I was out in his place in Ohio. He lives up in Geauga County, which is Northeastern Ohio. I didn’t have my gun with me, because I was flying, and I was doing a whole lot of other things. He said, “Oh, I got a gun for you to borrow.”

Well, what were we doing in Northeast Ohio? Well, of course, we’re squirrel hunting. In that part of the world, their trifecta is a regular gray squirrel, a fox squirrel, and what we’ll call an Algonquin black. It’s a black face of a gray squirrel.

So he’s got buckets of them out in his area, because there’s a sugar bush plantation. I don’t know how many acres it is of maples, and mixed forest, and beech, and all that kind of stuff. So he hands me this gun. I’m like, “Oh, this is really nice side by side. Well, what is it?” “It’s a Purdey.”

“Wait, what?” I said, “How the hell did you get a Purdey?” So he has a friend who was a hunter all his life, and he was old to hunt anymore. And he just gave Joe this Purdey, and it had a cracked stock. So he got the stock fixed, and you could barely tell that it was fixed.

I’ll tell you, man, the hype is real. This gun was heavy, but if you held it at the chamber, which is where its balance point was, it felt weightless. So the first and only animal I have ever shot with a Purdey is a squirrel that was flat against a tree, trying to get away from Joe.

So the squirrel seen Joe, and I snuck up on the left-hand side, like the velociraptors in Jurassic Park. And he never knew what hit him. I managed to not waste any of the mean, because that Purdey shoots pretty good.

Johnathan O’Dell:

That’s very funny to shoot squirrels with a Purdey. So speaking of expensive firearms, we probably should mention the Jackson Squirrel Rifle.

Hank Shaw:

I’m not familiar with this one.

Johnathan O’Dell:

So the Jackson Squirrel Rifle, which is made by Cooper Firearms out of Montana, is known as the Ferrari of squirrel rifles. It is a very, very ornate and beautiful .22. But the gun is actually named after a good friend of mine, names Clifton Jackson.

He is the small game biologist for Arkansas Game and Fish out there. So he actually ran into Bruce Cooper, who’s the owner of Cooper Firearms, many, many years ago, when Bruce was just getting started out with his company, and ended up taking him squirrel hunting on the White River.

So when Bruce got back to … They had a whole lot of fun. They hadn’t hunted squirrels since they were a kid. Well, Bruce got back to the shop and said, “We’re going to make a gun for Clifton.” So they did, and they sent it to Clifton, and called him, and said, “Hey, how do you like it?”

And Clifton’s like, “Yeah, okay. It’s nice.” And he’s like, “What do you mean, ‘Nice’? Is there something wrong with it?” So Clifton said, “Well, it’s not ideal for squirrel hunting.” And he’s like, “Well, what’s a good squirrel gun?”

So Clifton named off the beavertail forend, and Monte Carlo-style stock, and this, that and the other thing. So Bruce wrote all this down, and built that exact same gun to that specifications, and sent it to Clifton in replacement of the one he’d originally sent.

Well, it’s such a popular style that Bruce has just continued to make those guns. They’re A5 exhibition-grade claro walnut. They’re well over $2000 a piece without a scope attached yet. And they’re beautiful guns.

I’ve shot the original that Clifton has, but you can actually get the Jackson package on any rifle that Cooper makes. But famously, if it’s a .22 or a .22 Magnum or any of that, that it’s the Jackson Squirrel Rifle.

Hank Shaw:

That is hilarious. I’ll have to put a link to this rifle in the show notes for this one.

Johnathan O’Dell:

Yeah, it’s beautiful.

Hank Shaw:

For the discerning squirrel hunter.

Johnathan O’Dell:

Oh, absolutely. So yeah, you’ve shot them with Purdeys. I’ve shot them with [crosstalk 00:31:57].

Hank Shaw:

The fanciest .22.

Johnathan O’Dell:

… you can imagine, yeah.

Hank Shaw:

Yeah, I’ve actually hunted squirrels in Arkansas. That actually brings up another interesting point that I wanted to talk about. My friend, Jonathan Wilkins, another Johnathan squirrel hunter. He’s a chef in Arkansas and a good friend of mine.

He went squirrel hunting when we were doing some goose hunting in Arkansas. And he came back with a bunch of squirrels, including, I don’t know, maybe four kits. So clearly, clearly, not so much baby squirrels, but young-of-the-years squirrels.

And this is the key, and I think this [crosstalk 00:32:39] night. You talk about origins of this and that and the other thing in any given pursuit. And chicken-fried squirrel, okay? So I’m going to say right now that chicken-fried squirrel, with any normal squirrel, is a terrible idea.

It’s a terrible idea. Squirrels can live up to seven or eight years in the wild, depending on the species and place. All these squirrels that are older, or bigger, or more mature, is like chewing leather. I mean, the breading might taste good, but you need to parcook them first, except for kits.

So Johnathan fried up these kits and they were amazing. It’s the first time, I think, I had ever had fried squirrel that wasn’t tough and horrible. I’d just completely given up on it, because everybody in the South, they swoon over chicken-fried squirrel.

“Well, what are you talking about? It’s terrible.” So what they fail to tell you, is that, unless they’re par-cooking it first, they’re always cooking young-of-the-year. That’s one of those things that nobody tells you, until you actually live through it.

Johnathan O’Dell:

Yeah, for sure. That’s a true statement. I mean, I think a lot of wild-game species, and, of course, even the domestic ones, there’s that one dish that is almost the quintessential dish, or what they’re maybe best known for, or things like that. And yeah, chicken-fried squirrel and gravy, that’s it.

Hank Shaw:

Chicken-fried squirrel’s one. Well, see, squirrel gravy’s a little bit different. So there’s chicken-fried squirrel, and then squirrel gravy is actually a cool deal. It’s braised squirrel pulled off the bone and chopped, and made into a brown gravy. That’s really good.

You put that on grits, and I’ll eat that any day. That’s a super, super famous one. And then your other two that you can’t mention squirrels without is, squirrel and dumplings and Brunswick stew.

Johnathan O’Dell:

Yeah, of course, Brunswick. Now, are you a believer in the origin of Brunswick being Virginia?

Hank Shaw:

I mean, I think it’s lost to time. I mean, it’s a very traditional … If, for some reason out there, you don’t know what Brunswick stew is, basically, it’s a what-you-got stew. Every region has one, and they have different names.

Few of them have different rules to them, like no beans in Texas chili. But Brunswick stew is effectively a bunch of vegetables and a bunch of meats simmered into stew until you feel like eating it.

Some people will make this stew so that you can see and taste all of the distinctive things. And some people just hammer it. It’s very traditional to have squirrel and some sort of red meat, and often, pork will be your three meats.

But you will see any three meats, or four meats, or sometimes six meats. Kentucky burgoo is very similar. Who knows if it’s Georgia or Virginia? I mean, it’s a good, good … Makes me want to eat that stew right now.

Johnathan O’Dell:

Yeah, for sure. I tend to be a believer in the Virginia side for one reason, and it was Thomas Jefferson and his gardening. When you look at Thomas Jefferson and his gardening, and his fascination with tomatoes and things like that, that’s what makes me believe that Brunswick may’ve been more Virginia to begin with.

I think Georgia might’ve had a similar stew and maybe they melded together or whatnot, but yeah, it’s where I stand on that, on the issue of Brunswick.

Hank Shaw:

You could also say, in Virginia’s favor, is that, Virginia was settled much earlier, much more extensively than Georgia. So Georgia was a penal colony. After the English lost Botany Bay, they shipped everybody over to Georgia for a while.

Georgia was not settled until the 1700s, really. There was a few settlements there. But Virginia, you got Jamestown and the legislature. Virginia’s had a legislature for 400 years. Georgia has not. Maybe Virginia, but I don’t think anybody really knows.

Johnathan O’Dell:

Yeah, no, for sure.

Hank Shaw:

Both of us has hunted every species of tree squirrel in North America. Well, north of the Rio. I am hard pressed to say that there’s really any difference in how you go about hunting them.

Johnathan O’Dell:

Yeah, I would agree with that. When I first did the slam, it wasn’t something I originally said, “Oh, I’m going to get a slam of squirrels.” It was, I was looking at my travel schedule for the fall, and realized I was going to be within the range of all eight squirrels.

And I said to myself, I’m like, “Man, I wonder if I can get all eight.” So I tried, and did. Probably, the only thing that I see as a big difference is just knowing more about the habits and habitats of the squirrels, which makes you a better hunter, because fox squirrels are lazy. You don’t have to hunt them at dawn.

Some gray squirrels that are really pressured, like in Missouri, oh my Lord, you need to be there well before sunup, and sitting in position, waiting, before they come around.

Hank Shaw:

Minnesota’s like that too.

Johnathan O’Dell:

Yeah, there isn’t a lot of difference in technique, but knowing the habits and habitats, I think, really help you out a lot, because that’s really all I did, was, trust my instincts. I was like, “John, you’re a pretty good squirrel hunter. You’re out here in the middle of Missouri. You haven’t seen a squirrel for half a day.

“You are where you’re supposed to be. Just wait it out. Hang out.” And sure enough, yeah, I mean, it comes together.

Hank Shaw:

I love your story about the Chiricahua red squirrel, which is like, “If you get one, just go and eat tacos, because hard to find more than one.”

Johnathan O’Dell:

Yeah. Well, Chiricahua fox squirrels have the lowest fecundity, or the lowest birthrate of any squirrels in the United States.

Hank Shaw:

Really?

Johnathan O’Dell:

Yeah, they have very, very low reproductive rates. So those of us who hunt them are like … I hunted nine days straight in the Chiricahua. It was just after fox squirrels. And I can you, my best day ever was two.

Hank Shaw:

Well, did you have one basically commit suicide?

Johnathan O’Dell:

Well, yeah, that was the thing. I got used to the fact that, you kill a squirrel, and then you could just go home. You wouldn’t mess around. So I shot my squirrel of the morning. I was hanging out, taking pictures. I was at my truck and I was skinning it out.

And sure enough, this one just bounds up the tree right next to my truck, and I’m like, “Oh my God, it’s the second squirrel. I have to get you.” So yeah, he presented himself to me in a very auspicious way.

Hank Shaw:

Well, that’s like when we did our hunt in the snow. We’re driving up there, and you’re like, “Oh my God, he’s right there. Get him.” I couldn’t see him at first. He runs up that tree. We’re on this pathway covered in snow.

I think I actually have a video of the aftermath, because it was super steep sides, and you had him spotted. I didn’t see him at first. Then he moved, because he looked exactly like the dead pine cones. He was just tucked up.

Johnathan O’Dell:

Yeah, they look like the bark as well. If you noticed that when it was clinging to the limb before you were able to shoot it, and we couldn’t spot it right away. They literally match that reddish and black spotted bark of most of those three pine trees I mentioned.

Hank Shaw:

I ended up making a red pipián with him. So I figured if he was a Mexican squirrel, I’d make a Mexican dish.

Johnathan O’Dell:

Yeah, for sure.

Hank Shaw:

If you’re in the East, your general rule is, you need to look in hardwoods. So mass trees, which, hickories, pignuts, acorns, butternuts, anything that’s got … As everybody knows, squirrels like nuts.

So the East is pretty good, pretty well known kind of terrain. But once you get to the West, the mass trees out where we are, are a little bit different. I mean, you get a lot more pine-nut-eating squirrels out in the West than you do in the East.

I’m pretty familiar with … Our local squirrel is the western gray. He’s a pretty cool squirrel. He’s very icy blue gray, big. They tend to like the transition between pine and conifer, or pine and hardwood. I’m less familiar with the habitats of the Abert’s and the other Arizona squirrels.

Johnathan O’Dell:

Yeah, Abert’s are super, super easy. So the only thing you have to remember about Abert’s is ponderosa pine. Abert’s are an obligate of the ponderosa pine tree. So here in Arizona and New Mexico, this is the largest continuous stand of ponderosa in the world.

It runs all across the top of the Colorado Plateau, and Jessup into Southern Colorado, and into Utah, which is where they’re at. But yeah, the forest itself is actually reliant on the Abert squirrel because of the clipping that it does on the fresh buds.

And it rips the cones apart, and doesn’t get a chance to eat all the seeds. So seeds get thrown everywhere. So they’re completely linked to ponderosa pine, without question.

Hank Shaw:

That’s a good tip.

Johnathan O’Dell:

Now, Arizona grays are very unique in that, really, what’s the key element of the habitat is Arizona walnut, but you don’t need a lot of them. What you’re looking for is, generally, you’re going to look in riparian corridors, and some of our canyons and drainages that are wet all the time, so they’re covered [crosstalk 00:42:41].

Hank Shaw:

That’s pretty much where all the walnuts live, because your Arizona walnut, is it … So there’s Arizona walnut, there’s a California walnut, and there’s a Northern California walnut. And of the three wild Western walnut, the Arizona one has, by far, the smallest nuts. For people, it’s kind of not worth picking those walnuts. But you’re right, they run next to rivers.

Johnathan O’Dell:

Well, so the reason why you’re looking for the Arizona walnut isn’t because the squirrels love them. What it is, is the flower, the catkin that comes off in the spring before the walnut begins to form, it’s the flower.

That’s what the Arizona gray squirrel eats to turn on its reproductive system, to begin to mate and have babies.

Hank Shaw:

So it’s gray squirrel Viagra?

Johnathan O’Dell:

Basically, yeah. Yeah. Spanish fly for Arizona gray squirrels. So yeah, like I said, as long as there’s a big Arizona walnut tree, that’s definitely producing nuts these flowers. I mean, if you find at least one of those trees, you’re going to have Arizona gray squirrels in the neighborhood.

Hank Shaw:

Interesting. Now, do those trees live all over Arizona, or just in below Flagstaff area?

Johnathan O’Dell:

Below Flagstaff. Basically, you’re looking at a lot of the front face of the Mogollon Rim, which is below the Colorado Plateau. And then a couple of isolated mountain ranges to our west. And then only certain ranges within the sky islands of Southern Arizona.

Apparently, what I believe happened was, the glaciers deposited those squirrels and those habitats that, when the Wisconsonian ice sheet was retreating, probably, a lot of them were more connected, just based on our climate at the time.

And then eventually, those things got cut away, because there’s a lot of species that you see that distribution break up across Southern Arizona, because of the sky island complex. Several species are that way, which is really unusual.

So yeah, there’s famously our endangered squirrel, the Mount Graham red squirrel. There are no gray squirrels on the Pinaleño, that entire mountain range. There’s only the red squirrel that was native.

Abert’s were put in by the department, I think, back in the ’40s, to expand hunting opportunity, which was a bad decision in retrospect. But yeah, there’s no gray squirrels on that entire mountain range, and it’s real close to a lot of other great squirrel habitats. So the very next mountain range is perfectly fine. It has great squirrels.

Hank Shaw:

What about New Mexico?

Johnathan O’Dell:

New Mexico does have a lot too, and it’s broken up across their terrain as well. It extends out. Really, only New Mexico and Arizona have the Arizona gray squirrel. And yeah, it’s the Arizona walnut and those riparian canyons and corridors.

Hank Shaw:

Have you ever seen those trippy Delaware fox squirrels? The ones that kind of look like a skunk and a squirrel had a lovechild?

Johnathan O’Dell:

Oh, yeah. That’s the most interesting part. We haven’t talked about diversity.

Hank Shaw:

That’s true. They always wear different clothes.

Johnathan O’Dell:

Yeah, so the eastern fox squirrel, of all the squirrels, has the greatest diversity, in terms of all the color varieties that are around, or sometimes designated subspecies based on those differences. But yeah, eastern fox squirrels have the greatest variety.

I can’t remember how many there really are. You’ve talked about, there’s a complete black one called the delta fox squirrel-

Hank Shaw:

There’s a black fox squirrel? Okay.

Johnathan O’Dell:

Oh, absolutely. Yeah, full black, in the Mississippi Delta. There’s the Sherman’s fox squirrel, which looks like a squirrel that’s dunked its head in a bucket of black paint.

Hank Shaw:

Is that the one that lives in South Carolina? I was down duck hunting in South Carolina with the South Carolina Waterfowl Association. I was in their lodge, and I’d never seen anything like it in my life. It was a gigantic squirrel.

It had to be like a four-pound squirrel mounted, climbing down the wall. It was basically a black and white giant fox squirrel. I’d never seen that color face before.

Johnathan O’Dell:

Yeah, the true Sherman’s are what they call Sherman’s, are in Northern Florida, Southern Georgia. And then there’s some variations of that as it moves north, as you see that mix of silver, and black, and white, and red. They get really oddball varieties that comes out.

And then leading all the way up to the Delmarva, the endangered Delmarva fox squirrel. Or now, I think it’s threatened. They’ve removed it from the list recently, but still aren’t allowing hunting of it. That one is a beautiful … I mean, it’s almost silver in color.

It’s not gray. I mean, it’s silver. It’s beautiful. Lives out in the Piedmont there on the Delaware … That’s its name, Delmarva, which is Delaware, Maryland, Virginia, that peninsula that encompasses all three states.

Hank Shaw:

Oh, yeah. I used to live in Richmond. I know it well.

Johnathan O’Dell:

Yeah. That’s really neat. Most of the other ones, I famously have shot. Not the albino-

Hank Shaw:

The gray one.

Johnathan O’Dell:

… gray squirrel, but the amelanistic or leucism sometimes is what it’s called. So they don’t have the pink eyes. They don’t have the pink skin underneath. It’s truly a white, sometimes even a little blond. But yeah, famously, that was one of the ones, because there’s very few locations for absolutely whiles squirrels that aren’t albinos.

Hank Shaw:

I wonder if what I saw … I was hunting near Stillwater Minnesota a couple years ago. I was driving to the place I was going to hunt, and I almost ran off the road because a white squirrel ran across the road. Like, “No. Get … It’s running into somebody’s yard, safe.”

Johnathan O’Dell:

Yeah. Yeah, you can actually go see white squirrels in Marionville, Missouri, and Olney, Illinois, in town. And both towns are very protective of those squirrels.

Hank Shaw:

I’ll bet.

Johnathan O’Dell:

Don’t allow any hunting and stuff like that. Occasionally, some get road killed and things like that. So that’s usually where you end up seeing mounts for them. But yeah, if you see a regular white squirrel, more often than not, it’s going to be an albino, outside of that. But then, there’s [crosstalk 00:49:07].

Hank Shaw:

The snow squirrel.

Johnathan O’Dell:

Yeah, melanism, the black face, where the color gene just completely turns and goes black. Actually, what’s fascinating to me, and my assumptions on this are just based on my own reading and understanding. But the very first biological entry in the Lewis and Clark journals, on the Journey of Discovery, were about black gray squirrels swimming across the Mississippi. And-

Hank Shaw:

Which is weird, because there’s black gray squirrels in DC.

Johnathan O’Dell:

Well, and-

Hank Shaw:

And Ohio.

Johnathan O’Dell:

So it’s my contention actually, that the eastern gray squirrel actually was predominantly black throughout most of the population, pre Western Settlement, prior to us getting here, because the Eastern hardwoods were a very closed-canopy dark forest.

Hank Shaw:

Yeah, you’re right. It was.

Johnathan O’Dell:

Yeah, so I think, as we expanded and opened up, and started chopping down the forest, the color was more selected for predation, because they were easy to spot. And the gray ones simply were able to hide out better, because all the early squirrel information about the United States talks heavily about how many black squirrels were everywhere.

Hank Shaw:

As opposed to the English squirrel. It’s the classic metaphor. So if you don’t know, I mean, Johnathan, you know, of course, but out there, you might not know that some chucklehead decided to bring American gray squirrels to Great Britain, where the bigger more aggressive arrogant American squirrel is completely dominating the squirrel mumkin, or squirrel nutkin, little English reddish squirrel.

The whole country’s got their … I was going to say they got their tits in a ringer. I just did. Now, in England, you can get squirrel in menus. Fergus Henderson’s put it on his menu, because they’re trying to eat the invasives. It’s funny that their invasives is our native squirrel.

Johnathan O’Dell:

Yeah. Well, of all the squirrel species, the eastern gray squirrel is so versatile. It’s such a generalist that it can survive just about anywhere on anything, and really out compete. I mean, it just out hustles anything else.

Hank Shaw:

They are. They’re out here in California too.

Johnathan O’Dell:

You’ve got them in California. I mean, there’s always concerns because of just planes just traveling internationally, particularly out of the Southeast or the Eastern United States, that, a squirrel hops on a flight because of some baggage truck or something going underneath a tree, and taking them all over the world, because, yeah, they are …

One of the things that eastern gray squirrels are problematic with is squirrelpox with their disease. That really impacted the British squirrels very, very bad too, because the gray squirrels can be positive for it, and never have any symptoms or ill effects. And it’s transmissible, I think, throughout all the squirrel species, as far as we know.

Hank Shaw:

Who knew? Well, let’s switch gears for a second, and talk about squirrel calls. So squirrel calls seems to be a thing, right? I’ve never ever used one, and I don’t know if I’m missing out.

Johnathan O’Dell:

Yeah, I worked with a custom call maker, Ozark Custom Calls, Richard Meagher, who’s out in Missouri, simply because I was frustrated with the calls that were on the market, because there was something about them that wasn’t right sounding.

After being in the woods so long and listening to them, I was like, “I just can’t get the right sound out of it.” And I wanted something that was versatile enough to be able to do not only the bark, but the snort, and the chatter.

Squirrels are very versatile in their calling and talking behavior. So finally, met a guy and he’s like, “If you want to do it, I’m willing to work with you on it.” So we finally did make one, which is really awesome. I love it. It’s wood.

But we had to bend the crud out of the tone boards, because every time I blew it, I’m like, “No, this sounds like a monkey. No, this sounds like something else.” Eventually, I finally got to the right sound, and I was like, “Oh my Gosh, this is it.”

So I was super stoked about it. It works well. I mean, I’m not going to say that it’s a hundred percent sure thing, but I can get some squirrels really irritated really quick by calling [crosstalk 00:53:37].

Hank Shaw:

Who makes this call?

Johnathan O’Dell:

He only made the one for me, but as far a custom, he has [crosstalk 00:53:43].

Hank Shaw:

He made you one. It’s the one true squirrel call.

Johnathan O’Dell:

Yeah. So he has the measurements and all, but his name’s Richard Meagher with Ozark Custom Calls, out of Missouri.

Hank Shaw:

He’s going to get some phone calls.

Johnathan O’Dell:

I hope so. It’s just a beautiful little thing, and you got to work with it a little bit. Part of a call even, whether it’s duck calling or squirrel calling, some of that really is about talking to the animals. But sometimes, it’s just more confidence for you in doing what you’re doing.

Hank Shaw:

Let’s talk about actually putting squirrels in the bag. My advice to everybody is always, slow down, and use your ears more than anything else, because squirrels tend to not be super quiet. And I’ve tended to be able to hunt better and bring home more squirrels by moving slower, and by watching, and by listening, and then moving judiciously, than by trying to cover more ground. Has that been your experience too?

Johnathan O’Dell:

Absolutely. I really rely on my ears and my eyes, and standing still for periods. Silently moving through the woods and stuff. You’ll catch a little twitch or something. But the other thing is, yeah, you definitely hear …

There’s a lot of nonverbal communication that squirrels do actually, like tapping their nails on bark, which I’ve seen a lot. And they won’t bark at you. They’ll just tap their nails at you in close proximity to you, or something. They’re just trying to figure out what you are.

But the other thing that you have to watch is, if they’re moving around in the trees, looking at limbs and how they move in the wind, and finding something that just doesn’t seem off. It’s not bouncing the right way. It’s like, “Maybe that’s a squirrel.”

And you start picking up those little key things the more time you spend with squirrels, that, I think really help you put more squirrels in the bag, and find them, and put them down.

Hank Shaw:

It’s always been my experience that, if it’s super windy, don’t even bother. But other than that, I generally find squirrels out every day.

Johnathan O’Dell:

Yeah, super windy or heavy snow days, like if there’s a big cold front moving through, a lot of times, usually, that wind comes with that. They’re hang out in their dreys all day long or whatnot. But if you’re out there the day before, sometimes it’s bananas.

You can go into an area where you’re like, “Oh, there might be three or four squirrels around here.” And it happened to me a few years ago out in Flagstaff. I was like, “Yeah, there’s probably maybe half a dozen squirrels in this little area.” And the very next day, a storm was coming. So I said, “I’ll go out and squirrel hunt again this morning.” I got out there.

Literally, there was 24 squirrels on the ground looking at me, trying to gather whatever warmth of food they could find from running around. I was like, “Oh my God, look at how many squirrels there are.” I would’ve never guessed there were that many in that little area.

Hank Shaw:

What’s the bag limit?

Johnathan O’Dell:

Arizona is just five squirrels per day. Colorado, for Abert’s, I believe it’s only two. That’s the lowest limit, I think, of squirrels in the country that I’ve ever found.

Hank Shaw:

Yeah, ours is four.

Johnathan O’Dell:

Yeah, and a lot of the Eastern states, you’ll get 8 or 10.

Hank Shaw:

I find that, at least in Minnesota and in other cold places, if it’s really ripping cold, I hunted squirrels once where it was zero without the wind. At that time, I was smart enough to not go before dawn.

I noticed that they didn’t even start moving until after 9:00 AM. They waited until the sun got up a bit before they left and started walking around.

Johnathan O’Dell:

Yeah. We talk about squirrel hunting in the snow in Arizona. I’m probably one of the few people in Arizona who owns a pair of snowshoes, because I do love snow hunting squirrels up in the high country in Arizona, especially after a fresh powder snow.

That, to me, is one of the funnest, just to be able to follow tracks and to see where squirrels are running, because they always … It’s very interesting to see how they move through the woods. Even though they’re not being followed, it looks like they’re trying to give you the slip, and give you some James Bond 007 stuff.

They’re climb up one tree, and go jump over three trees, and then come down. So you can’t find stuff. But yeah, cold days, I think, as you get better about what areas you’re in and stuff, you learn to figure out when squirrels are out, when versus they’re not.

Hank Shaw:

I’ve never squirrel hunted in pounding rain, but that’s just probably more me than them, I guess.

Johnathan O’Dell:

Yeah, I think so. Squirrels don’t like the wind, because they’re obviously listening for predators themselves.

Hank Shaw:

With the exception of the two red squirrels, the Douglas and the actual red, I’ve noticed a huge flavor difference in the animals, once you get them home and in the pot.

Johnathan O’Dell:

Right. I think there are some nuances. I think you’ve talked about before, the gray squirrels and the flock squirrels tend to be pretty nutty, just as far as a pallet profile. Abert’s do take on the ponderosa pine, the light terpenes that you get from there, just in their fat and things like that.

But yeah, red squirrels and Douglas squirrels have definitely a strong pronounced taste because of the conifer trees they’re in.

Hank Shaw:

Yeah, they’re the ones that they’re super piny. They’re piny, almost like a spruce grouse can get piny, in the sense that, it’s not bad. People will say, “It’s bitter.” It’s not really quite that. It’s just like a twang.

Johnathan O’Dell:

I think some people, as you and I have talked about, some people, their tongues don’t even know what flavor is, or reminded of them, because they’re been stuck on the generic domestic American diet for so long with meat that’s really bland.

So yeah, I actually tend to enjoy the piny flavor. I mean, I had one guy, he told me, he said, “A red squirrel basically tastes like your best cut of chicken marinated in Pine-Sol.”

Hank Shaw:

Briefly marinated in Pine-Sol.

Johnathan O’Dell:

Yeah, Briefly marinated in Pine-Sol. I don’t see a problem with it most times. I actually think it works in the favor, like if you’re doing strong spices along with that piny flavor, to really enhance everything instead of letting it just be the dominant.

I would never … I don’t know that I would go super bold on most any other squirrels in terms of seasoning or flavoring. They tend to be a mild, gentle meat to begin with.

Hank Shaw:

Squirrel might be my favorite mammal meat. It’s better than venison, better than rabbit, because it’s more interesting. It reminds me of the oyster, that little round piece of meat at the base of the thigh of a turkey or chicken, where it’s a dark meat, but not too dark.

It’s dense. I’ve never really found a squirrel that was so tough that it took me more than two, two and a half hours to braise it. So it’s relatively tender. You get a nice, good fox squirrel or western gray, or Arizona gray, it’s even more than one squirrel a person.

So they’re big animals. I’ve done one squirrel for two people on these bigger ones. Regular eastern gray is one per. I don’t know. It’s just something about it. There’s just something interesting about it. It could just be because that was the first thing that I ever hunted. There’s emotions talking there.

Johnathan O’Dell:

Hundreds of years later now, since the start of this country, I mean, we still wouldn’t have these discussions about squirrels if they weren’t delicious and those kind of things. Fun fact, kids, squirrel actually is the fattest game meat. It’s the highest in cholesterol when you look at the statistics on it.

But as well, here’s the other trivia point for the day, is that, squirrel is the only game mammal with a collar bone.

Hank Shaw:

Yep, I think I told you that, didn’t I?

Johnathan O’Dell:

Oh, no. I knew about that.

Hank Shaw:

It’s super weird. When you’re butchering squirrels, it’s like, “Hey, wait.”

Johnathan O’Dell:

Yeah, so squirrel can be forgiving in a skillet, simply because of that extra fat keeping the meat juicy and moist, unlike a lot of other game that is leaner and dries out quicker.

Hank Shaw:

I think, cooking wise, they do tend to be a bit limited, because you’re dealing with a small animal with a fair number of bones. And like we mentioned before, unless you get a young-of-the-year, you can’t really just chicken fry them.

So you’re always dealing with a process to tenderize the meat, and it usually means braising or putting it in stews. Grilled squirrel would be a weird thing. I mean, could you? I suppose, but you probably have to braise it first and then grill it, or grill it and then braise it.

Hank Shaw:

I mean, I think if you back in American history, you see fricassee as your main deal, and that’s a two-step. So that’s fried and then simmered.

Johnathan O’Dell:

Yeah, it’s unlike rabbit, where 60% of your meat’s basically in the hindquarters. There’s a little more, not exactly, but a little more better distribution of the meat throughout the squirrel. I mean, you skin a squirrel and they look like little muscle men, ripping up and down the trees all the time, just with all their muscular structure.

But yeah, I think you’re right. It’s how to deal with all those little bones, and processing everything, and all that. I mean, thankfully, most guys who do it right now like some other species, like birds, where they just breast it out and leave all that extra meat on there. At least they’re taking pretty much all of it because they want it and are going to use it.

Hank Shaw:

Fun fact. While you were talking about that, I’m thinking of, I will almost save the liver and the heart, and put that into the stew or whatever. I mean, my mind immediately jumped to what I hear a lot for some reason, that, “Don’t squirrels always have rabies?” It’s my understanding that squirrels can’t actually get rabies.

Johnathan O’Dell:

That actually is one of the weird … So being here in Arizona and close to the Golden Triangle, for prairie dogs, which are part of the squirrel family, interestingly [crosstalk 01:04:21].

Hank Shaw:

Hantavirus.

Johnathan O’Dell:

Well, yeah. That’s [crosstalk 01:04:24].

Hank Shaw:

Or bubonic plague.

Johnathan O’Dell:

Well, and that occurred here in Arizona a number of years ago. Somehow, magically, mysteriously, we had a couple of Abert’s tree squirrels test positive for plague, who were very close to a colony of prairie dogs.

So the phone call comes to me, and they’re like, “How far do you think bubonic plague will spread through the squirrel population?” And I’m just imagining this wildfire going across the ponderosas. I’m going, I’m like, “Well … ”

I started thinking about them, and how social they are, and how close into contact they come with each other. I said, “It’s probably going to stay localized. I don’t think it will spread that far. Maybe with squirrels that they share their drey with or whatever, but it’ll fall apart.”

And eventually, it did. I mean, we didn’t get a whole lot more after those first two cases. Well, and squirrels have really interesting things about them. If any other squirrel at like an Abert’s did, it would kill them.

If we transponded a fox squirrel or a gray squirrel, if they ate the meristematic tissue of the ponderosa pine and all that stuff, it would [crosstalk 01:05:31]

Hank Shaw:

That’s the under bark, right?

Johnathan O’Dell:

Yeah. Yeah. It would kill a fox squirrel or a gray squirrel to do that. I can’t remember what it is that causes eastern fox squirrels bones to turn pink from something that they eat, but it doesn’t do it in gray squirrels. And they could eat the same thing.

Hank Shaw:

Weird.

Johnathan O’Dell:

Yeah. As I’ve often said, to me, it’s really cool that the order of rodentia, all the rodents, make up 60% of all mammals on the planet. So they’re the largest group as a whole, but they’re probably the least studied overall.

The Sciuridae family, all the squirrels, are a big chunk of rodentia too. So I love the fact there are squirrels … the only place there are no squirrels on the entire planet Earth is Antarctica and Madagascar.

Hank Shaw:

Weird, because the lemurs, I guess, kicked them out in Madagascar.

Johnathan O’Dell:

Yeah, I have no idea why that is, but we have Alaskan or arctic ground squirrels that do this torpor thing or hibernation-like [crosstalk 01:06:36].

Hank Shaw:

Oh, I heard about that, yeah.

Johnathan O’Dell:

It’s being studied now, but squirrels … From an environmental standpoint, if you think about forests or trees, in terms of a natural history life cycle, there’s only two things you can possibly think about with any forest or any tree, and it’s a bird or it’s a squirrel, because they needed them in order to help fulfill their life cycles.

The eastern hardwoods are all about gray squirrels burying nuts and forgetting about it. The Abert’s is like the gardener of ponderosas, pruning all the time and shaping trees, particularly in a high fire regime that they evolved out of.

Johnathan O’Dell:

So I often think about California redwoods and the sequoias, and I go, “Dear God, I think the Lord in Heaven that it wasn’t a squirrel who did these trees, because we’d need a 30 odd 6 to shoot them out of the tree.”

First of all, it’d be 300-yard shot to the top of the tree, and then you’d have to get out of the way and make sure it didn’t crush you when it fell to the ground.

Hank Shaw:

We were talking about the eastern gray squirrels and burring acorns. One of the coolest things that, I read about this years ago, is that, the squirrels are smart enough to know that, when they come across a red acorn, to burry it, because it’s full of tannin, and it’s bitter, and tannin is water soluble.

So when that acorn get rained on and snowed on, it leaches out some of the tannins. Well, if they’re hungry today, they’re go and grab a white oak acorn, because they’re much lower in tannins. And they’ll eat those constantly while they’re burring red oak acorns all fall. I thought that was really fascinating.

Johnathan O’Dell:

Yeah, trying to put away a stock of food for the winter.

Hank Shaw:

But their ability to discern the two acorns, you think about it, yes, it’s basically a rat with good pubic relations and a bushy tail. But then, as you know, rats are pretty smart. Are they the only rodent that we normally hunt? Because rabbits aren’t rodents.

Johnathan O’Dell:

Right, they’re lagomorphs. As far as rodents? Well, I would say, in terms of a traditional way, the way American hunting has evolved, yeah, absolutely. Squirrels are the only rodents that we hunt.

Hank Shaw:

Yeah, because people will pop rock chucks, and marmots, and nutria, and beavers, and those are all rodents.

Johnathan O’Dell:

Well, and interesting you just said that, because marmots are part of the squirrel family.

Hank Shaw:

Oh, okay.

Johnathan O’Dell:

Prairie dogs are part of the squirrel family. They’re all part of Sciuridae. The defining feature of Sciuridae is that all of them can climb trees, regardless of their status as a ground dweller, or a tree dweller, or whatever. And they all can turn their ankles 180 degrees behind them.

Hank Shaw:

Mean a woodchuck in Pennsylvania can do that?

Johnathan O’Dell:

Yeah, if it’s part of the Sciuridae family, it sure can. I mean, marmots can do the same thing. [crosstalk 01:09:43].

Hank Shaw:

That’d be trippy to see a woodchuck up a tree.

Johnathan O’Dell:

What’s crazier is seeing a prairie dog up a tree, especially in the West here, how we think about them. But yeah, all the Sciuridae family can climb trees, even whether they choose to a lot. I think a lot of them probably were arboreal for a long time, and then some transitioned to the ground, and just took on different lives, because either the tree that they might’ve been associated with is gone now, or any evolutionary pressures that were weighing on them at the time.

And you can always tell, just immediately looking at a squirrel, if it’s a tree squirrel or not, simply by, it has a broad flatter style wide tail, which they use for balance. The big tree squirrels, the six we talked about, excluding Douglas and red squirrels, that Sciurus, their genus name means shade tail-

Hank Shaw:

Oh, okay. That’s cool.

Johnathan O’Dell:

… because they sit in the shade of their tail, yeah. So red squirrels and Douglas squirrels actually are called Tamiasciurus. Now the Tamias genus actually is chipmunk. That’s the chipmunk one. Sciurus is the shade tails. So when you see Douglas and red squirrels, they-

Hank Shaw:

They do look like half and half.

Johnathan O’Dell:

Yeah, it’s because they have cheek pouches. Cheek pouches with shade tails.

Hank Shaw:

Interesting. Let’s finish up with talking some recipes and cooking, and that kind of stuff. I mean, I know how I like to cook squirrels, and I’ll go into that in a little bit. But you have competed in the World Squirrel Cooking Championship in Bentonville, Arkansas.

Johnathan O’Dell:

Where else would you hold such a fine event? [crosstalk 01:11:23].

Hank Shaw:

I know. I know. I was a judge at that one year. It was pretty cool, actually. I will probably go back there at some point. How do you like to cook … I mean, I know when you do a competition, everybody’s trying to be super fancy. But how does Johnathan O’Dell cook up a mess of squirrels on a Sunday afternoon at home?

Johnathan O’Dell:

Yeah, I tend to … I’ll high-grade the squirrels too, find out how many young-of-the-year I got, versus how many adults-

Hank Shaw:

Hey, let’s stop for a second. Other than size, is there a way to tell?

Johnathan O’Dell:

Not really. Sometimes, even that can be deceptive, because you’ll have young-of-the-year that maybe have been born early or whatnot. A lot of times, I think that I can tell by looking at the quality of their teeth, or their claws, or thing like that, whether it’s new or whether it’s got some age to it, because both of those, the claws and the teeth, continually grow throughout their lifecycle.

So their teeth go all the way into their skull, like halfway around, through their nasal cavities and everything. So they never run out of tooth. There’s never any gummy-style grandpa squirrel with no teeth out there.

Hank Shaw:

All right, so you’re high-grading them.

Johnathan O’Dell:

Yeah, I do that. But as you said, there’s an inherent toughness in some squirrels, and there’s a couple ways to deal with that. One of them is parboiling. Another is grinding the meat and stuff like that.

But I tend to like to parboil. I like squirrels because … and right now, we’re nearing the end of chilly season here, and New Mexico, and Arizona and all that. So hatch chiles are abundant everywhere that I go. And squirrel season’s just kicking off.

Johnathan O’Dell:

So it’s really nice to combine some of those squirrels with a green a chili and parboil them, making stews or whatnot, because, yeah, [crosstalk 01:13:21].

Hank Shaw:

A Southwestern squirrel gravy is like a green chili squirrel on a … I don’t know. What would you put it on?

Johnathan O’Dell:

I’m big fan, like you, of Sonora. One of the hallmarks of Sonoran cuisine is the lack of corn, with just a couple of exceptions. One of the exceptions is, is the Sonoran enchilada, which is a stacked enchilada and not a rolled enchilada.

Hank Shaw:

New Mexico does that too.

Johnathan O’Dell:

Exactly. It seems to be the only time you see corn in Sonoran cuisine. So I love making those masa cakes.

Hank Shaw:

Oh, that’s right, because aren’t they … It’s a thick tortilla, isn’t it?

Johnathan O’Dell:

It is. Oh, it’s very thick, yeah. It’s not like a standard Arizona flower tortilla or Sonoran flower tortilla. It’s a thicker masa that’s fried. Yeah, that and some green chili squirrel gravy. You just pout it on the top. Little bit of cheese. You’re in Heaven.

Hank Shaw:

That’s a good dish. So the Sonoran masa cake. I forget what they call it, but it’s basically, if you’re in New England listening to this, it’s a Johnnycake. It’s a disk of, well, in their case, masa, so it’s nixtamalized.

But it’s a disk of cornmeal cooked into a cake, and fried in lard in both sides. So it holds together and holds its shape. And then you put good things on top of it.

Johnathan O’Dell:

I Americanize it, I’m sure. I add in whole-kernel sweetcorn in that mix and stuff, just to give a little more rustic. A little more body. But yeah, it’s actually one of the first dishes I competed at with the World Champion Squirrel Cook-Off, and took third place the first year with it. So since it’s mine, I get the chance to name it. We called it Ardilla enchiladas.

Hank Shaw:

Ardilla, meaning squirrel in Spanish.

Johnathan O’Dell:

Squirrel in Spanish, yeah. It was a good time. I really enjoyed working on that dish, creating it the first time, because I wasn’t sure. I think I’m still the only contestant in the history of the World Champion Squirrel Cook-Off to make use of Abert’s there.

So everyone else usually uses gray squirrels, fox squirrels. I think I was still the furthest Western team so far too. I don’t know if a team from California’s made it out or not.

Hank Shaw:

I don’t know. There was nobody from the West when I was there. The Okies won it when I was there.

Johnathan O’Dell:

Yeah. Yeah. They’re very good. They compete every year. Do a fantastic job.

Hank Shaw:

For the record, their team is named the Okies. I’m not just being derogatory to Oklahoma people.

Johnathan O’Dell:

Yeah, I think it’s the Okie Squirrel Busters or something like that.

Hank Shaw:

Well, it was the Okie Squirrel Assassins or something awesome like that.

Johnathan O’Dell:

Yeah, could be. Yeah.

Hank Shaw:

Actually, the first squirrel dish that I became known for or knew of doing over and over again, I put it in my first book. It’s the Squirrel Aurora. It’s a Spanish dish from Spain, and it involves, normally, rabbit.

But it’s an olive, and caper, and almond or walnut sauce. I wanted to pair a squirrel with some sort of a nut sauce or nut thing like it. I tinkered with the dish quite a bit before I got it right. And it’s still, to this day, got to make it at least once a year. It’s a great, great dish.

I’ll put that dish in the show notes. Johnathan, if you want to give me the recipe for your green chili squirrel, I may or may not put it up on the site, and give you full credit.

Johnathan O’Dell:

Yeah, no, it’s really awesome. Like I said, it’s a homemade green chili. We’ve talked about this before. I make the sauce homemade for it. It uses that technique, which my brain is fogging out on, using fat and flour to start it-

Hank Shaw:

A roux.

Johnathan O’Dell:

A rue, yeah, because you and I have talked about that with green chili, stews and things like that, and how you thought that was kind of a bizarre way to start with a rue, and then adding green chili to it. But I can tell you, it’s absolutely fantastic. It works.

Hank Shaw:

No, and since we had that original conversation years ago, that’s a thing. So that’s why, whenever you see green chili something, it’s usually from Sonora or New Mexico or Arizona, and it has a rue. If it’s chili verde, it’s usually Mexican, Mexican, and no roux.

So that’s a verbal shorthand when you see that. So you do green chili something. My friend, Lane Warner, who’s a chef at La Fonda in Santa Fe, he does a green chili teal that is out of this world. He also uses a roux.

Johnathan O’Dell:

Yeah. It really is a nice way to work. I picked it up several years ago, just being down here in hatch chili country, seeing other people make it, because I do chili verde style stuff too, with tomatillos and everything else, where there is no roux.

Hank Shaw:

Well, all right. Well, I think we’ve covered quite a bit of squirrel-ness this past almost hour and a half. So this season, it is October. Your squirrel season is opening. Do you have any squirrel hunting plans for this coming season?

Johnathan O’Dell:

Yeah, squirrel hunting actually opened today here in Arizona. So I’m hoping to get up very, very soon. Been watching the reports. Of course, duck season also opened the same day today. So I’m getting conflicting urges, one to go after birds, and one to go after squirrels. But we’ll definitely get out there this year.

Hank Shaw:

And I will see you in December, when we will chase Mr. Bushy Tail together.

Johnathan O’Dell:

All right, sounds good, man.

Hank Shaw:

All right, that’s for being on the show, and I will see you out there.

Johnathan O’Dell:

I appreciate it. Thanks.

Hank Shaw:

Thanks again for listening to the Hunt Gather Talk podcast. I am your hose, Hank Shaw. You can follow on me on social media, at Instagram. I am @huntgathercook. I’m on Twitter as Hank_Shaw. I am on Facebook. Look for the forum Hunt Gather Cook. It is a forum on Facebook, and you have to ask to get to in.

Answer the questions and tell me that you heard it on the Hunt Gather Talk podcast. You can always find me online at Hunter Angler Garner Cook. That is huntgathercook.com. All the recipes in the home base of this Hunt Gather Talk podcast are there. Talk to you soon. Shoot straight and have fun out there, everyone. I’m Hank Shaw. See you next time.

 

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About Hank Shaw

Hey there. Welcome to Hunter Angler Gardener Cook, the internet’s largest source of recipes and know-how for wild foods. I am a chef, author, and yes, hunter, angler, gardener, forager and cook. Follow me on Instagram and on Facebook.

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8 Comments

  1. Hank, you and Johnathan talked about combo guns like the Savage 24 and 42. My wife got me a Chiappa (sp?) Double Badger for a post-deployment gift. We call it the Chupacabra. The great thing about it compared to the Savage 42, it comes in .22cal/4.10ga and .22cal/20ga (the 1 I got). But also it has double triggers to select the barrels for a follow up shot. The Savage 42 has this weird like firing pin thing on the hammer, so limited chance for a follow up shot. Not the nicest looking shooting iron in the safe but she works good. Taken a couple of Blue Grouse in CO with it, follow up shots were handy.

  2. Hi Hank love the podcast! Just wanted to add a comment about squirrel hunting in general. When I hunt squirrels on a regular basis I find it has a direct tie in with my success as a big game hunter especially whitetails. I’m sure it’s the amount of time I spend in the woods and hone my senses to my surroundings. Also helps with marksmanship when I use a rifle. One other thing I grew up in Pennsylvania and hunted woodchucks AKA groundhogs a lot. I have seen them in trees, not often, but I have witnessed it a time or two. Most likely to avoid predation I would assume.

  3. Thanks for doing this Hank! I searched in ITunes but couldn’t find it yet. Do you have a direct link to it for ITunes?

    1. Kjell: It’s not yet back on iTunes. They can take a few days to approve a podcast. iTunes took me off their platform because it’s been so long between seasons. It’ll be back in a day or so.